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nuclear battery - no fission, fusion, or betavoltaics.

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Hon1nbo

Sat Jun 14 2008, 06:42PM

Registered Member #902 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 08:17PM
Location: Pacific Northwest USA
Posts: 1042

abstract: the battery described uses a small radioactive source [beta and alpha emitter required] to produce ions in a small gap of air in a sealed chamber. the walls of the chamber are non-conductive except for two electrodes, of two different metals (copper and zinc are common for this type of battery and what I assumed were used). the ions make the small gap of air fairly conductive, assuming that the ions are produced in required amounts... The battery formed can be compared to the lemon or potato battery; the two metals of different locations in the activity series exchange ions and produce a current flow, just like a normal battery...

tests: when I first tried this, I used a "water clock" that uses salt water (it was like this one: http://www.thinkgeek.com/homeoffice/lights/757e/). instead, I lowered a small amount of depleted uranium (100% delpleted, U-238 e.g. non-fissile) into two of the chambers to provide the required ions...
results: the clock ran, but very little current wsa produced, so the LCD did not function properly

can anyone make any suggestions?... I plan to switch from U-238 (because of it's regulations on machining and manufacturing with it) to a combination of thorium lantern mantles (for alpha) and lead-210 (for beta)...

[also, I figured this would go in chemistry under the subcategory electrochemistry]

EEYORE

Wed Jul 09 2008, 03:52PM

Registered Member #99 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637

I dont think thorium mantles or u238 will work. You need ALOT of activity to get any measurable effects. Like, curies of the stuff. What exactly did you do, and how did you measure it? U238 is not very active at all. Ore is much more active than it is. The stuff needed is going to be off limits to people like us.
Matt

Bored Chemist

Wed Jul 09 2008, 04:53PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

I know there's a lot of stuff on this site that is basicly devoted to doing things the hard way, but using nuclear radiation in place of a potato seems a bit extreme.

EEYORE

Wed Jul 09 2008, 05:17PM

Registered Member #99 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637

Bored Chemist wrote ...

I know there's a lot of stuff on this site that is basicly devoted to doing things the hard way, but using nuclear radiation in place of a potato seems a bit extreme.

Nukes last longer than potatoes

And Nukes are more fun

Id take a $10,000 project requiring licensing over a tater any day!
Matt

Hon1nbo

Thu Jul 10 2008, 07:25PM

Registered Member #902 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 08:17PM
Location: Pacific Northwest USA
Posts: 1042

here is the thing though, it is NOT that U-238 is not very active, it is that most of the radiation never leaves the sample due to its very high density...
right now it is on hold due to needing some way to improve efficiency (different metals and possibly adjusting the spacing?)... it technically worked, and the clock ran (although the LCD was hard to read), but I want it to power other things too...

@Bored Chemist: part of the point of this is the extremely long life.

@mattrq2: and on the note of anything with more usable radiation being unavailable... think again: United Nuclear

also, I have more than just a few microcuries of the stuff...

EEYORE

Fri Jul 11 2008, 05:56AM

Registered Member #99 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637

Ok, yes u238 is a bit active, but not when compared to regular ore. U238 is depleted of its hot isotopes. Also, UN is bunk...Overpriced and over hyped. The isotopes sold there are all exempt quanitity amounts. All under 100uC except for maybe PO-210. Even still, you would need curies of the stuff. (Several million times the amounts sold to the public). That would cost a pretty penny and be a nightmare getting the okay from the Gov.
It would also be quite a hazard! Im not telling you not to do this for safety sake, but I was in your same spot 2 years ago and just wound up dissapointed when I worked out the math.
Now, how exactly did you set up this clock experiment?
Matt

Hon1nbo

Fri Jul 11 2008, 12:25PM

Registered Member #902 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 08:17PM
Location: Pacific Northwest USA
Posts: 1042

took the clock, checked for aluminum parts (alpha and aluminum never mix well), lowered material and used some ticky tack to hold uranium in place... that is all that was needed...
I got it to replicate a few times, now I am trying to do it on other hardware... the clock I used is designed for very low power, so I don't know how well it will work in a homemade ion chamber.
Also, I know that ore is more active, and I have plenty of ore... but I am trying not to use it was it is relatively unpredictable in this case, and there is the fact that it still has the fissile U-235/232 so public thoughts would not be good... but it might be necessary, but I rather hope not.

Seoul_lasers

Sun Aug 24 2008, 04:48PM

Registered Member #1630 Joined: Sat Aug 09 2008, 11:36AM
Location: Seoul Korea
Posts: 115

mattrg2 wrote ...

I dont think thorium mantles or u238 will work. You need ALOT of activity to get any measurable effects. Like, curies of the stuff. What exactly did you do, and how did you measure it? U238 is not very active at all. Ore is much more active than it is. The stuff needed is going to be off limits to people like us.
Matt

Actually not quite on this one. An alpha voltaic cell made with 1uCi of Am241 can produce 1 volt. It uses a Be or BeCu collector for the absorber this part is insulated and the other is ground. The difference in the 2 plates causes a small amount of current flow.
Pu238 was used on Voyager and it produced quite a bit of juice for a LONG TIME!

Hon1nbo

Sun Aug 24 2008, 05:08PM

Registered Member #902 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 08:17PM
Location: Pacific Northwest USA
Posts: 1042

Seoul_lasers wrote ...

that cannot be right, as if someone used am241 with a Be collector, the result would be a extremely dangerous stream of neutrons, while it is doable, I intend to design a safer alternative..
Also, the PU238 on the voyager used it's natural fission heat to power thermocouples IIRC

EEYORE

Sun Aug 24 2008, 09:43PM

Registered Member #99 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637

you would need an awful lot of am241 to get any neutrons from Be. Much more than 1uC...we are talking 100,000 times that and Be powdered...If you crunch the numbers, youll see.
matt

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