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HHO gas for boosting diesel mileage

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LAN_403

Quantum Singularity

Thu Jun 12 2008, 05:16AM

Registered Member #158 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 09:53PM
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 282

On another forum (pertaining to trucks) there is quite a lot of interest in making DIY HHO generators. Now I know there is a lot of folks who think they can run a motor of water for free and thats obviously bs. But what these guys are saying is that its not running completely off the HHO gas its only a very small amount required to mix with the combustion that suppose to help the diesel burn more efficiently since hydrogen burns much faster than diesel and can ignite fuel that would have otherwise would have been un-burnt. Most seem to think its going to be a 20% gain in mpg due to the average diesel not burning 20%. Some claim much higher but I am sure that is bs. I'm a little rusty in chemistry, I know burning the HHO for primary fuel would not yield more energy that it took to create it, but simply using a small amount og HHO as a catalyst for a more complete burn... well now I am not so sure if this may have some truth to it. Anyone care to set the records straight? The way I figure if it were really true than probably every semi truck would have them, and if the manufacturers werent using them themselves, they should at least be available at every auto parts store.

Adrenaline

Thu Jun 12 2008, 01:20PM

Registered Member #235 Joined: Wed Feb 22 2006, 04:59PM
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Biodisel Forum

This forum thread is the one place I know where someone has taken some proper experiment procedure regarding hydrogen injection. His results corroborate the effect hydrogen has on the diesel burning process.

I have not had the time to experiment, however I would like to see the hydrogen injection done with a genset and record run times with and without the hydrogen generation.

Chris

Thu Jun 12 2008, 01:23PM

Registered Member #8 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 04:34AM
Location: Harlowton, MT, United States
Posts: 214

The way I figure if it were really true than probably every semi truck would have them

Not even close. If it's new engine related technology, companies will not be quick to adopt it. They may never, even if it is very good. It has to be proven before it will be adopted, and it has to be adopted before it can be proven.

There are additives for racing fuel that are intended to do exactly what you describe increasing combustion efficiency by rapidly burning. Propylene oxide was a popular (now banned) one. But these additives are premixed in with the fuel in a liquid state. I don't know if hydrogen could get the same results, especially without big engine modifications (extra injectors and such).

Bjørn

Thu Jun 12 2008, 01:58PM

Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058

I did not find any proper experiments, I did find our friend Jean-Louis after 30 seconds of reading.

I did also find a claim of 40.5% improvement in efficiency which is far beyond remarkable.

Adrenaline

Thu Jun 12 2008, 02:06PM

Registered Member #235 Joined: Wed Feb 22 2006, 04:59PM
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Posts: 80

Yea, it isn't the best experimental procedure. However, does provide some data, take it as you may. As I mentioned before I would prefer to see a generator running under some load in a controlled condition. Run some tests under normal conditions and monitor run times. Then use hydrogen produced from electrolysis powered by the generator while powering the test load and monitor run times.

ea6b607

Thu Jun 12 2008, 08:17PM

Registered Member #1320 Joined: Sat Feb 16 2008, 01:31AM
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what is the difference between HHO gas and a H2 and O gas molecule.

Quantum Singularity

Fri Jun 13 2008, 01:02AM

Registered Member #158 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 09:53PM
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 282

ea6b607 wrote ...

what is the difference between HHO gas and a H2 and O gas molecule.

Just the way its written. HHO sounds trendy

and if you say H20 gas then thats confusing I guess with water.

Chris wrote ...

The way I figure if it were really true than probably every semi truck would have them

Well your right, it takes forever to adopt new technology and also you know most auto makers are kinda 'in' with the oil companies or something like that.

But what about aftermarket? For example there are just one or two places selling these online as complete ad-in units. As I recall they are like $1,000-1,500, and claim 30-60% increase in mpg. But for a truck driver who drives for a living even a 20% boost in mpg would pay for itself in like a couple weeks.

And its not really new technology. I mean the diesel folks have been injecting propane for many years but as far as a 'daily driver' it is not cost effective, I believe its mostly used in drag racing and things like truck and tractor pulls to simply get more power no matter the cost, kind of like nitrous for gas motors.

Chris

Fri Jun 13 2008, 03:56AM

Registered Member #8 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 04:34AM
Location: Harlowton, MT, United States
Posts: 214

What about increased wear and even hydrogen embrittlement? Even little things that boost mileage and/or power, like adding a chip, can drastically reduce reliability and cause a rig to break down faster.

Backyard Skunkworks

Fri Jun 13 2008, 05:17AM

Registered Member #1262 Joined: Fri Jan 25 2008, 05:22AM
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 451

With diesel prices now, the cost of electrolyzing water electrically has got to be way lower. Even a small increase in mileage could be a great money saver.

Interestingly, pure hydrogen has a RON around the same as diesel, meaning it has a similar burn speed. Hydrogen as an aditive however can boost the RON significantly (more than hydrogen alone), obviously allowing for more total fuel to burn. The addition of more oxygen no doubt allows for more complete combustion.

As far as hydrogen attacking metals, aluminum might be an issue in the long run, I'm not totally sure.

Also, hydrogen has about three times the energy content of diesel, a hydrogen rich mixture may be overall cheaper per mile.

When Mythbusters did their "alternate fuels" episode a while back, they tested a fuel cell that did "bupkiss". However, when they hooked a tank of hydrogen gas directly up to the fuel intake, the car ran perfectly until the hose fell out and caught everything on fire.

Overall I could really see hydrogen giving atleast SOME improvement in mileage, if diesel prices get much higher this could be a real money saver.

BTW Technically it's not HHO gas, it's 2HÂ² OÂ² (Remember both H and O are diatomic as gases).

EDIT: Didn't realize people were using onboard hydrogen generators, makes it much less viable for a net energy gain. Burning pre-made hydrogen out of a tank would be better, as you are paying (cheaply) for the power company's generator instead of using your truck's power system.

Quantum Singularity

Tue Jun 17 2008, 07:40AM

Registered Member #158 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 09:53PM
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 282

Well the most recent person to chime in has claimed that his DIY 14 cell HHO generator has boosted his diesel from 12.5 to 17.5 mpg running at 4.5-5 LPM of HHO and it runs at 35A. This is about the most efficient setup reported I've read about on that forum (ford trucks forum). But that is still pretty unbelievable at a gain of like 40%.

Just for example my daily commute to work right now is 80mi round trip, and in 1 month I average 13.5 days, so 1,080 miles. If I were to be driving a truck about the same as the above fellow I'd save about $130 a month. He says he has about $500 into it so it will pay itself back in less than 4 months. After that its money in your pocket.
But this is really nothing compared to some of the claims. On hydrorunner.com they are saying 84% increases in fuel economy on a 2001 F-350 diesel, to the tune of 38.9mpg! Holy crap batman thats a Geo mileage figure for an 8000 pound one ton ford truck!

Heck even if you didnt need the diesel to haul stuff its still cheaper to go that route if these claims are true. Even my 'small' half ton truck with a lil v6 is only getting me in the 16's on the hwy.

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