Welcome
Username or Email:

Password:


Missing Code




[ ]
[ ]
Online
  • Guests: 75
  • Members: 0
  • Newest Member: omjtest
  • Most ever online: 396
    Guests: 396, Members: 0 on 12 Jan : 12:51
Members Birthdays:
One birthday today, congrats!
Brad (42)


Next birthdays
04/05 Self Defenestrate (35)
04/05 Alex Yuan (29)
04/06 Jrz126 (41)
Contact
If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.


Special Thanks To:
  • Aaron Holmes
  • Aaron Wheeler
  • Adam Horden
  • Alan Scrimgeour
  • Andre
  • Andrew Haynes
  • Anonymous000
  • asabase
  • Austin Weil
  • barney
  • Barry
  • Bert Hickman
  • Bill Kukowski
  • Blitzorn
  • Brandon Paradelas
  • Bruce Bowling
  • BubeeMike
  • Byong Park
  • Cesiumsponge
  • Chris F.
  • Chris Hooper
  • Corey Worthington
  • Derek Woodroffe
  • Dalus
  • Dan Strother
  • Daniel Davis
  • Daniel Uhrenholt
  • datasheetarchive
  • Dave Billington
  • Dave Marshall
  • David F.
  • Dennis Rogers
  • drelectrix
  • Dr. John Gudenas
  • Dr. Spark
  • E.TexasTesla
  • eastvoltresearch
  • Eirik Taylor
  • Erik Dyakov
  • Erlend^SE
  • Finn Hammer
  • Firebug24k
  • GalliumMan
  • Gary Peterson
  • George Slade
  • GhostNull
  • Gordon Mcknight
  • Graham Armitage
  • Grant
  • GreySoul
  • Henry H
  • IamSmooth
  • In memory of Leo Powning
  • Jacob Cash
  • James Howells
  • James Pawson
  • Jeff Greenfield
  • Jeff Thomas
  • Jesse Frost
  • Jim Mitchell
  • jlr134
  • Joe Mastroianni
  • John Forcina
  • John Oberg
  • John Willcutt
  • Jon Newcomb
  • klugesmith
  • Leslie Wright
  • Lutz Hoffman
  • Mads Barnkob
  • Martin King
  • Mats Karlsson
  • Matt Gibson
  • Matthew Guidry
  • mbd
  • Michael D'Angelo
  • Mikkel
  • mileswaldron
  • mister_rf
  • Neil Foster
  • Nick de Smith
  • Nick Soroka
  • nicklenorp
  • Nik
  • Norman Stanley
  • Patrick Coleman
  • Paul Brodie
  • Paul Jordan
  • Paul Montgomery
  • Ped
  • Peter Krogen
  • Peter Terren
  • PhilGood
  • Richard Feldman
  • Robert Bush
  • Royce Bailey
  • Scott Fusare
  • Scott Newman
  • smiffy
  • Stella
  • Steven Busic
  • Steve Conner
  • Steve Jones
  • Steve Ward
  • Sulaiman
  • Thomas Coyle
  • Thomas A. Wallace
  • Thomas W
  • Timo
  • Torch
  • Ulf Jonsson
  • vasil
  • Vaxian
  • vladi mazzilli
  • wastehl
  • Weston
  • William Kim
  • William N.
  • William Stehl
  • Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: General Chatting
« Previous topic | Next topic »   

Cell phone can pop popcorn?

 1 2 3 4 
Move Thread LAN_403
Electroholic
Fri Jun 13 2008, 07:55AM
Electroholic Registered Member #191 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 02:01AM
Location: Esbjerg Denmark
Posts: 720

Link2
Back to top
Mates
Fri Jun 13 2008, 11:34AM
Mates Registered Member #1025 Joined: Sun Sept 23 2007, 07:53PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 566
Chris Russell wrote ...

I think the best argument to explain how this can't happen is to work through the math.

According to the information here: Link2

Average mass of a popcorn kernel (at worst, site notes bigger kernels are more desirable): 0.133g
Average moisture content of a popcorn kernel at 21C: 15%, or .020g
Temperature at which a popcorn kernel pops: 250C (delta t of 229C)

We know that the heat of vaporization of water is 40.7kJ per mol, or 40.7kJ per 18.0g, or 2.26kJ per gram. This suggests that the energy required just to boil the water in one kernel of popcorn is roughly 45.2J. We also know that the energy required to heat a gram of water by 229C is 958J (4.184J per degree C), which adds another 19.2J to the required energy, upping the ante to 64.4J per kernel.

This means that your average 600W microwave oven should be able to pop 490 (65.1g) popcorn kernels, the amount in a single bag of Act II microwavable popcorn, in about 52.6 seconds. Note that this is assuming they absorb energy at 100% efficiency, there were no other ingredients to heat such as butter, no microwave energy was lost as heat while being reflected off the walls of the oven, no power dissipated by the magnetron due to impedance mismatch, and no heat lost from the kernels by convection. In reality we know that the real amount of time it takes is 2-3 times longer, but at least we know we are in the correct general area.

This also means that in order to be able to pop a kernel of popcorn in 13 seconds, as shown, the total power that those phones must deliver to a single kernel is a staggering 4.95W. Even allowing 2W per phone, this means that somehow an omnidirectional antenna is coupling 82.5% of its energy into a small kernel of popcorn some cm away. Laughable. But it gets worse.

A cell phone is not a microwave oven. There's no reflective cavity, so the microwaves only get to pass through the kernel of popcorn once, rather than many times. Therefore, in order to get as much energy as possible into such a small target, the beam would have to be incredibly tightly focused, well beyond what would be possible even with a well-designed parabolic dish.

Even if a cell phone was capable of emitting a maser-like 2W beam of microwave energy at 2.4 GHz that just happens to be exactly the width of a popcorn kernel, you will not see that sort of efficiency. The half power depth of for the heating of water at 2.45GHz is 12mm. Anything smaller than that will not even absorb half of the microwave energy that passes through it. A 6mm popcorn kernel (the largest size given here: Link2 ) would absorb about 30% of the energy that passes through it, if it were made of solid water. Since it's actually only 15% water, now it's only absorbing about 4.5% of the energy that passes through it, and I'm being very generous with the math here. For three phones to deliver that much power to *one* kernel, the phones need to emit a beam of microwaves 6mm wide, containing a total average power of 100W, or 33W per phone.

Folks, that is not a phone, that's a frickin' maser beam of death.

Good job Chris; this is how proper argumentation should look like...

BTW: The size of the heated object really plays important role. I saw a document recently about ants living inside the microwave ovens capable to survive also inside the resonant cavity (when the oven is on). They can somehow detect areas where are no waves and use them as temporary refugium. Clever litle bastards wink
Back to top
Avi
Wed Jun 18 2008, 11:09PM
Avi Registered Member #580 Joined: Mon Mar 12 2007, 03:17PM
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 410
Link2
Back to top
Hon1nbo
Thu Jun 19 2008, 02:24AM
Hon1nbo Registered Member #902 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 08:17PM
Location: Pacific Northwest USA
Posts: 1042
also, don't forget that water is not the only thing in food that is heated in a microwave oven... many oils are, for instance bacon ;)
and that popcorn trick in San Francisco is able to be done since the pressure is so high, it makes the overall pressure difference between the inside of the kernel and the chamber next to zero, so it wont break the shell... then the sudden release causes it to break the shell instantly since the pressure is already there...
Back to top
Andrew L.
Sat Jun 21 2008, 03:34PM
Andrew L. Registered Member #515 Joined: Sun Feb 11 2007, 02:06PM
Location: Slovenia/Ljubljana
Posts: 94
Link2
Back to top
KresoLiubov
Sat Jun 21 2008, 03:56PM
KresoLiubov Registered Member #1153 Joined: Mon Dec 03 2007, 07:27PM
Location: Croatia
Posts: 213
Andrew L. wrote ...

Link2

I just hope some kid will not reproduce this experiment confused
Back to top
Dr. Dark Current
Sat Jun 21 2008, 04:01PM
Dr. Dark Current Registered Member #152 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 03:36PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 3384
Andrew L. wrote ...

Link2
I think he is missing a ground wire to the magnetron. (you need 3 wires, 2 for heater&HV and one for GND)


Back to top
Marko
Sat Jun 21 2008, 04:29PM
Marko Registered Member #89 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 02:40PM
Location: Zadar, Croatia
Posts: 3145
Andrew L. wrote ...

Link2

The anode of the magnetron tube is not connected to anything.

He is missing one wire as Jan noticed.
Back to top
Myke
Sat Jun 21 2008, 04:48PM
Myke Registered Member #540 Joined: Mon Feb 19 2007, 07:49PM
Location: MIT
Posts: 969
Andrew L. wrote ...

Link2

Wouldn't that destroy the cell phones? Also wouldn't it cause problems if you stood over it?
Back to top
Nik
Sat Jun 21 2008, 06:21PM
Nik Registered Member #53 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:31AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 638
So how long until CNN starts saying that microwaves cause blindness :-s
Back to top
 1 2 3 4 

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob

Go to:

Powered by e107 Forum System
 
Legal Information
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.