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Registered Member #135
Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735
A TC secondary is a transmission line because its a short circuit at resonance when fed like a transmission line. I exploit this fact here: If you must proove it to yourself you can build a couple of my little RF volt meters and measure each side of an impedance matching load and see it is true.
Here's the basic RF test set to measure both sides of the impedance match:
I'm pretty dedicated to this, considering I spent ~$700 on the Boonton stuff. Equipment dealers want $750 for the calibrated source alone >.<!! So I suggest building RF probes and getting close.
Banned on 02/27/2008 Registered Member #1326
Joined: Sun Feb 17 2008, 11:19PM
Location:
Posts: 49
@hazmat, with all due respects your experimental approach has no utility to me without a theory and model. when you go and experimetally prove E=mc^2 in a series of calorimeters with atom bombs and derive special and general relativity, then give me this suggestion.
I have been politely trying to say that I am looking for full intuitive derivations of the seminal aspects of tesla coil resonators. This interwinding capacitance is just the beginning. There are many other things that need to be derived and then compared on paper. the problem has to be solved step by step.
I dont need opinions of authorities. I need solid analysis, rigorous and intuitive at the same time ...... and i could hardly understand the photo of the chicken scratch white board with glare. better use a primitive method of scanning a piece of paper, and a few explanatory words and diagrams to make it a SELF-CONTAINED theorem of whatever you want to present.
Use Laplace, maxwell name it ............. whatever works.
I am sure some have it ..................... just some will to share and generosity.
Again I thank goldsphere, marko, neilthomas, hazmat and others with various useful and readable points.
cheers
Let me return focus to the issue:
NeilThomas wrote ...
you must prove
hey, chill, relax!
You have five energy storage elements, two caps and 3 inductors
No. A Tesla Coil secondary is not an inductor. If it was, it wouldn't have a 3rd harmonic resonance. It's a transmission line. Approximate single-frequency models give it an effective inductance and self-capacitance.
The paper that Golshpere pointed to is quite clever in its own right, but in its precision, it misses the essence of a TC. In fact it doesn't claim to model a TC, and it does not. The question that the mathematicians ask is "can you get a perfect theoretical system that transfers all of its energy into the output device?", and one answer is that paper.
The question that most Tesla Coilers ask is "can you get a real system that's easy to build and transfers most of its energy to the topload?" and the answer is a whole bunch of Tesla coils of varying dimensions. The essence of a TC is two weakly coupled resonators which start with energy stored in the primary capacitor, and transferred at some point to the effective capacitance to ground of the topload.
It's a physical fact, deeper than the mathematics in that paper, that two coupled resonators will exchange all of their energy back and forth during their cycle. However, the physical complexity of a TC means that any identification of those fundamental resonators with the physical components is only approximate, as they include wiring, stray fields, inter-turn as well as to-ground capacitance. The primary resonator is fairly accurately an LC circuit, so there is little error in simulating this as such. The secondary is a transmission line with a capacitive load, and this is a long way from an LC circuit, although the use of "effective" inductance and capacitance, which is most easily obtained by measurement, allows people to make surprisingly accurate and simple models.
I was aware that secondary is a segment of a transmission line, and if you see the other post where i am asking for derivation, each turn has inductance and self capacitance and this is how a transmission line is modelled ... actually not. A transmission line either has a return line (real) or image in a ground plane. The capacitance is always shunt in all the models. so you have to show me a transformation to that model or a reference. If the secondary were lying horizontal on the ground, I would say that it can have dominant shunt inductance. but since it is vertical, that is not major and fixed value. At this time I am not worrying about the termination on the coil, but there is no harm in assuming two plates of a capacitor on each end, and this capacitance is not much bigger than that between closely spaced turns.
Assuming, transmission line model of secondary is correct, lets see if there is a mathematical way to model an LC resonator coupled to a transmission line and follow its dynamics. a picture is needed to show the geometry. Intuitively its obviously like a laser or maser. an excited atom is a resonator, though not exactly. the transmission line with reflections of wave is like the ruby rod with end reflections.
This modelling can be very enlightening and satisfying or else there is an endless mental loop of doubts.
and I am chill and cool when it comes to analysis or you cant handle the 911 theories and jump to media given conclusions like a hot head ... so consider me a cold-blooded analyst.
Registered Member #135
Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735
Thermite, Read the Writing on the wall:
This is the theory and derivation. If you don't know what the resistor divider is, its in the wikipedia here. If you're ordering me to do a writeup of what I did, I already did that in my thread. If you want a wikipedia article covering this in totality, you're just going to have to research it yourself, I don't have time to do it now.
There is enough information presented that you could duplicate the experiment provided you have a generator and a couple of meters.
The only thing you cant see is a 10K resistor.
I have more equipment too, 2430A scope which is pretty sweet, old but sweet, and a 2GHz spectrum analyzer that I'm paying off, old too but sweet.
Registered Member #160
Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 02:07AM
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 938
Hazmatt, Your thread about finding the impedance of a coil under test is not related to what Thermite is asking for. Your white board scratchings are neither the theory or the derivation of a working Tesla coil. All you have shown is the impedance of one coil at resonance, and this hardly contributes to the topic, neither does your "shameless plug" of your coil in action clarify anything for Thermite. I'm sure he has seen a working coil as this is a Tesla coil forum after all. The stack of equipment on your table is quite impressive if we are comparing penis sizes, unfortunately for you we are not.
Thermite, there seems to be some conflicting ideas as to the exact mathematics of a working Tesla coil.
Registered Member #135
Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735
I was just trying to show what I was using as the experimental setup. I dont worry about "penis" size because I don't care about pissing contests, just the facts. I dont carry it over my shoulder either. I think its a shame that you would jump to that conclusion.
All I'm trying to say is "If you really must know, you MUST have a MINIMUM amount of equipment", and 98% of everyone here understands that fact.
If I didn't want you to be able to investigate this so I could walk around like a big shot all day, I wouldnt have spent 6 months reverse engineering a RF probe for you guys. So stop thinking about "penis" okay.
I think it prooves the transmission line theory quite well. Aside from the coil as a whole system, that can't be covered in one thread, you know that.
Banned on 02/27/2008 Registered Member #1326
Joined: Sun Feb 17 2008, 11:19PM
Location:
Posts: 49
Goldsphere wrote ...
Hazmatt, Your thread about finding the impedance of a coil under test is not related to what Thermite is asking for. Your white board scratchings are neither the theory or the derivation of a working Tesla coil. All you have shown is the impedance of one coil at resonance, and this hardly contributes to the topic, neither does your "shameless plug" of your coil in action clarify anything for Thermite. I'm sure he has seen a working coil as this is a Tesla coil forum after all. The stack of equipment on your table is quite impressive if we are comparing penis sizes, unfortunately for you we are not.
Thermite, there seems to be some conflicting ideas as to the exact mathematics of a working Tesla coil.
Goldsphere, Thanks for kindly pointing out the very obvious. I dont have multiple nicks, but some do and this is intentional disruption of the thread. There is a tactic in intelligence agencies and practiced outside as well: when you cant confront, deflect, and when you cant do that then irritate. Plz take a look at my thread in chemistry under thermite and similar two replies sooo fast, both non-contributive and non-sequitor. These guys think we are fools. God Bless Alex Jones (author of an excellent movie on video.google.com), we have waken up and understand their tactics now. There you will understand why the level of information is sooo poor sometimes that it makes you blush with shame. I have to esp thank you for giving me real good links or I would have left this forum a long time ago. There are others too that I mentioned in an earlier thread who gave useful info.
I did not want to say that so that these multiple accounts could launch a smear campaign of calling me confrontational since I am new here. But on thermite, my knowledge is partial but still more solid.
Also he said, its writing on the "wall" and not the whiteboard which is a masked threat.
Registered Member #160
Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 02:07AM
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 938
Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...
All I'm trying to say is "If you really must know, you MUST have a MINIMUM amount of equipment", and 98% of everyone here understands that fact.
Well then why show us the mound of electronics if we all understand this? I'm not trying to turn this into a shit fight, but some of your replies seem more motivated by grandstanding than by sharing knowledge. Thermite is asking for the mathematics anyway, so technically, he doesn't need any equipment for what he is doing.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...
I think it prooves the transmission line theory quite well. Aside from the coil as a whole system, that can't be covered in one thread, you know that.
I could read your markings quite well, but am unable to see how it proves the transmission line theory, can you supply some more information? I believe you may need to show how the standing waves increase the voltage gain.
The coil as a whole system is the topic, theoretically rather than experimentally.
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What is the basic definition of a tesla coil
