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Coyote Wilde

Fri Nov 02 2007, 01:52AM

Registered Member #175 Joined: Tue Feb 14 2006, 09:32PM
Location: Sudbury, ON
Posts: 111

Well, that would be lovely, but unfortunately killing off 4 or 5 billion people just isn't much of an option... nor is asking them to 'pretty please, don't have kids'
--- that's a really bad idea. Then the ones with stronger genetic drive to breeding will be the only ones with kids, and so trying to reduce reproduction anywhere down the line gets even harder.
Of course, plague, famine, and war can help with the population problem...

Besides, I wouldn't call Italy a third world country -- admittedly, Worldwatch was talking about Food, but, hey. Advances in technology can help us out of the energy crisis... nukes, renewable, Fusion, and there's a key thing everyone ignores-- that we aren't restricted to the resources of just one planet.

The doom and gloom attitude over all this is really just depressing. Where's that can-do spirit that made Western Civilization what it is? The humanist ideal that was at the very core of modernism? What happened to that? We put a MAN on the MOON, SPLIT the ATOM, and within the next couple years will have CREATED LIFE. (if Craig Venter and his ilk have anything to say about it)
You really think we can't lick this?
I find it absolutely fascinating that amongst technical people, there is an incredibly polar divide-- people who think that The Singularity is Nigh and people who think The End is Nigh. I've not seen very much in between.
I'm pretty surprised how strongly 4HV has come out in the apocalyptic camp, to be honest.

AndrewM

Fri Nov 02 2007, 04:54AM

Registered Member #49 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:05AM
Location: Bigass Pile of Penguins
Posts: 362

Coyote Wilde wrote ...

...people who think that The Singularity is Nigh and people who think The End is Nigh.

The Singularity camp are not "highly technical people". They are sci-fi fans, and 10 to 1 they work in the fast food industry.

To be honest I think I find that the MOST "technical" (which I take to mean educated and rational, with a propensity for critical analysis) people eschew a firm opinion in either direction.

Not to open a can of worms, but it doesn't take a genius to see that there is a shit-ton of hand-waving going on whenever someone (including various experts) opens their mouth about climate change.

Carbon_Rod

Fri Nov 02 2007, 05:52PM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

There are numerous factors that determine survival. Among all species, competitive exclusion of groups over limited resources is common. For humans it could be argued any Energy source like oil would also fall into the category.

What most people hate to admit is 80% of the current population growth is in 3rd world countries with a similarly high mortality rate. In many 2nd countries the populations are falling or stabilizing. And 1st world countries by definition are stable at the carrying capacity.

In terms of disease, heart problems from diet are worse than any pandemic. In terms of virulent pathogens, they are often rare as they do not spread unless there are extremely high density populations.

When Carrying capacity is exceeded there is not much any species can do. It is xenophobic thinking that encourages people to assume the problem is not a global one. We have the ability to see a potential problem, and therefore have an opportunity to provide options.

In my opinion, it will be like asking a fat man to stop eating sugar sprinkled doughnuts.

uzzors2k

Fri Nov 02 2007, 07:23PM

Registered Member #95 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:57PM
Location: Norway
Posts: 1308

Coyote Wilde wrote ...

The doom and gloom attitude over all this is really just depressing. Where's that can-do spirit that made Western Civilization what it is?

Well unless turning the entire globe into skyscrapers, bringing the world population to 15 billion and suffering from a greenhouse effect out of control turns you on, we need to look at the worst case scenario to make changes in time. What use is a can-do spirit if you have no goal?

However I doubt anyone will bother to make changes in time. The world's economy is based on oil, and that won't change until the oil reserves run out in 40 years. Why would anyone bother? There is no humane solution to the population growth problem. We would need a negative growth coefficient to get anywhere from today!

So really these problems have to be solved passively (plague, alien invasion, etc.). Call it depressing, but hey, how can it be prevented? All I can think of is uniting the entire world under some kind of super-authoritarian government, which devotes all resources to discovering a new source of energy and colonizing new planets. Just like the Egyptians building pyramids it will be the only goal of civilization, and individuals would mean nothing - except for the world leader who would be worshipped. It would be regression into a new era.

As a disclaimer, I would prefer to live in a post-apocalyptic world than the nightmare society I just described.

Dr. Drone

Fri Nov 02 2007, 10:00PM

Registered Member #290 Joined: Mon Mar 06 2006, 08:24PM
Location:
Posts: 1673

HV Enthusiast

Sat Nov 03 2007, 12:15PM

Registered Member #15 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068

wrote ...

Well, that would be lovely, but unfortunately killing off 4 or 5 billion people just isn't much of an option...

Uh, highly virulent organisms don't really care.

In 1918, the "spanish" influenza killed approx. 11% of the world's population. And this was before a time when mass transporation (air flight, etc...) existed. Another strain of a similar organism would likely kill much much more . . .

Nature *ALWAYS* has a way. Thats the beauty of it!

Bored Chemist

Sat Nov 03 2007, 01:20PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

Spanish flu got round the whole world perfectly well without commercial air travel. It did its damage in the days before antibiotics were available to counter secondary infections. It was also before anyone knew what a virus was. I don't see flu making more of an impact today than it did then. Even if it was twice as effective it would take out about 20% of the population; that's nowhere near 4 or 5 billion.
On the other hand, it's perfectly possible that some disease or other will do it.

HV Enthusiast

Sat Nov 03 2007, 06:52PM

Registered Member #15 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068

Bored Chemist wrote ...

Spanish flu got round the whole world perfectly well without commercial air travel. It did its damage in the days before antibiotics were available to counter secondary infections. It was also before anyone knew what a virus was. I don't see flu making more of an impact today than it did then. Even if it was twice as effective it would take out about 20% of the population; that's nowhere near 4 or 5 billion.
On the other hand, it's perfectly possible that some disease or other will do it.

Maybe in the US, Europe, and similar countries you can get antibiotics, but in 3rd world countries, including massive regions of India and China etc...., you ain't gonna get them.

wrote ...

It was also before anyone knew what a virus was.

Wrong again. Viruses were discovered well before the 20th century.
The first viruses were seen with microscope in 1886 (smallpox), and virology was said to have started by Dmitri Iwanowsky, in 1892.
And in 1908, scientists had already proven that virus (in particular polio) could infect both humans and animals.

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Sun Nov 04 2007, 12:03AM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

Heheheh. you guys are soo off topic, heheheh.

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