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Frustrated with People's perception of HV hobbies.

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Chris

Sun Jul 01 2007, 01:24AM

Registered Member #8 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 04:34AM
Location: Harlowton, MT, United States
Posts: 214

The government would want us all to believe it's not that bad... Tell it to Richard Paey (serving 25 years for possession of too many *prescription* opiates for chronic pain), Abram Smith (of Florida, arrested for having a couple pounds of ammonium nitrate and PVC pipe, legally owned guns, swords, stuff that a LOT of us around here mess with), or George Phillips, a photographer who was detained and whose home was raided after HVAC installers ran into chemicals (he developed his own film) and glassware in his cabinets (one officer told him that police would have shoved a machine gun up his nose and shot his dogs if the children had not been present.)

The owners of United Nuclear (an online science/chemistry store where I'm sure many people here have bought stuff) were the victims of a violent raid in the middle of the night for their possession of legal-but-mistrusted chemicals as well.

Forrest Mimms (author of some beginning electronics books, in fact his book got me and probably many of you started in electronics/HV, and science in general as a result!) has in fact been questioned by the FBI if any of the circuits published in his book could be used by terrorists to trigger bombs and such. Even general electronics *knowledge* is looked at as suspicious and dangerous now! When a member of our forum was arrested for certain victimless crimes, his computers, electronic components, and tesla coils were indeed all seized by raiding officers. This forum is probably watched by the feds and quite frankly I am surprised its administrators have not been confronted about this harboring of such potentially dangerous knowledge.

Houses are often raided after neighbors and passers-by see the glow of metal halide lamps, the assumption being marijuana is being grown. Think any of our HV hobbies could be interpreted as possible illicit activity? YOU BET! A garden supply store of Michael Sandsness was raided and all its assets and inventory seized (he was forced into bankruptcy) simply because it sold such lamps in an area where a marijuana growing operation was recently busted. A small online business that sold essential oils and such was also raided and driven into bankruptcy after a suspicious neighbor noticed glassware through the window and called it in. There are many real cases like these, I am not just conjuring this up out of my paranoid brain. The number of examples I could list, if these aren't enough, is directly related to the amount of time I am willing to spend on google researching this depressing subject. I will leave that part to you.

Drug warrants are now almost exclusively carried out by SWAT teams with scores of officers sporting full-automatic weapons, body armor, and paramilitary tactics - breaking down doors suddenly and using flash-bangs and the like at odd hours of the night. So-called "knock-and-enter" warrants are no different in practice, as SWAT officers normally break the door down within seconds of having lightly knocked and quietly announced their presense. The level of violence and intimidation in these events is astounding, with elderly and children being thrown violently to the floor, machine guns pointed at heads, threats being yelled, unprovoked shooting of pets, and that is exactly how they like it, so people will fear them and not try to resist (of course the fact is they are creating a volatile situation in which people on both sides are often shot and killed without reason or provocation). Something like 20% of these warrants end up being bogus, with no drugs found (either baseless warrant, or WRONG HOUSE), and the only results are terrorized or dead innocents. If you think it's an exaggration, a lie, a figment of my imagination, whatever, then I would say you need to read some case files and lesser-biased news stories.

The reason I bring up the general paramilitary raid scene is because it is closely related to us an our hobbies; by engaging in activities that are now regarded as suspicious, and with ALL requirements besides vague suspicion for a drug warrant having been removed from the country, we are at much greater risk of falling victim than joe-citizen (though make no mistake, joe-citizen falls victim to these guys often enough).

The Meth-Watch program

encourages citizens to notify police immediately if they: see any sort of laboratory glassware, see bottles of unknown chemicals or any of a huge number of "watched" chemicals, smell ammonia or acrid fumes, see anyone acting reclusive, see lots of traffic at someone's house at odd hours... you get the idea. Upon anonymous notification, you can be assured of a paramilitary raid.

If the public sees you at your hobby in science/chemistry/yes even HV, they are told it is their duty to notify police of your suspicious behavior. This is really being pushed, and you would be much the wiser and safer to not disregard it. You can call me overly paranoid, but that's what they WANT you to think people like me are. The truth is I just don't want to see anyone here get arrested for these victimless "crimes" that we are all now guilty of.

As far as I am aware, this paranoia and suspicion of chemistry, electronics, and science in general for fear of drugs and terrorism is far worse in America than about any other country (Australia seems to be as bad or worse, actually, and certainly worse in some regards, but I will let our Aussies comment on that). America has the highest *per-capita* prison population of any country in the world, surpassing even Russia and China by far at 1 in 149 incarcerated or something like that and MOST of them are for minor drug offenses. So please, do not even try to down-play the severity of this problem or the risks of our scientific hobbies unless you really would know and can back it up with evidence that these horrors I have mentioned do not happen.

Myke

Sun Jul 01 2007, 02:40AM

Registered Member #540 Joined: Mon Feb 19 2007, 07:49PM
Location: MIT
Posts: 969

Sometimes I wonder where this country is heading

. Are we being run by fear?

...

Sun Jul 01 2007, 03:34AM

Registered Member #56 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2445

Quite a war has sprung up since I clicked reply, but I suppose the points are still valid...

You guys need to take off your tinfoil hats, I think they are drawing attention to you.

My mom has made a hobby out of reading the labels on everything (she works for the waste water treatment department, so she is obsessed with anything that might end up in the water), and I have yet to see anyone so much as give us a weird look.

We have done all sorts of stuff in the back yard (including but not limited to testing rocket motors, small oxy/acetylene bombs, etching, shooting lasers, etc) and haven't had someone call the cops on us since the 4th of july in '95 when we were making too much noise.

Online I have posted 3d renders of a 10w yag laser I am building, sold about 300w worth of 808nm pump bars on ebay, bought over a kw worth, a few nonlinear crystals, optics, etc, not to mention the countless electronic bits.

I realize some of you have had creepy vans come by, but buying acetone or selling laser diodes isn't the only thing you did...

Michael W.

Sun Jul 01 2007, 05:58AM

Registered Member #50 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:07AM
Location: Vernon, B.C, Canada
Posts: 324

Chris wrote ...

The level of violence and intimidation in these events is astounding, with elderly and children being thrown violently to the floor, machine guns pointed at heads, threats being yelled, unprovoked shooting of pets, and that is exactly how they like it, so people will fear them and not try to resist (of course the fact is they are creating a volatile situation in which people on both sides are often shot and killed without reason or provocation).

Are you joking? A swat team initiates a raid on firm grounds and a planned assault. They don't whilly-nilly blow into houses on suspicion of having glasswear and beat up old people; maybe someones watching a little bit to much NYPD Blue. Stop Telling the poor people in other countries that North America is some cesspool of degradation and "dirty Cop'ery"......

ragnar

Sun Jul 01 2007, 06:53AM

Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425

Michael W., Chris has brought up several documented events regarding 'victims' of such arrests. SWAT teams do make mistakes. North America isn't a cesspool, and Chris isn't saying it is. He's merely identifying a trend, or a pattern, that is leading towards a very, very dominant government. Chris isn't out of his mind, nor is he a tinfoil-hatter -- he's just asserting the events as they happened.

Just because the horrors are few doesn't mean they don't happen. All the same, just because they happen doesn't mean it's widespread. Why is this relationship starting to appear? I blame towelheads.

Chris Russell

Sun Jul 01 2007, 07:17AM

... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052

Wow. Just wow. I hope I can steer this topic back towards something a bit more productive.

Honestly, I haven't had too much trouble with people's perception of my hobbies. Sure, there are always people that have poor attitudes, and can't fathom why I would want to spend an evening winding a coil, or listening for a far away radio station. More often than not, though, people are just curious. I've had a more than a few people end up asking me how they might go about doing the same thing. Sometimes I wish I'd printed up pamphlets.

I realize that there are a lot of people out there that take a poor attitude towards science, and tend to view it as an odd behavior. However, when we start getting frustrated, and maybe not being as forthcoming as we could be, it really ends up hurting us and the hobbies we love. Whenever I'm out and about, be it with a Tesla coil or a Ham radio, I tend to think of myself as an ambassador of the hobby. Generating a little interest is rarely a bad thing, and you never know where the next convert might be lurking.

Steve Conner

Sun Jul 01 2007, 11:08AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

I must admit that I didn't realise how bad the situation was in America. I notice that all the posts telling Chris F. to calm down come from Europe or Canada. The crazy crackdown on meth sounds terrible. I heard that over here, people just got bored of meth, and market forces drove the street price down until it was cheaper than cold medicine!

But ultimately I think all what we're talking about is relevant to the topic. It shows how we think the public perceive us as science hobbyists. I personally subscribe to Chris Russell's point of view, that science is all about fun, learning, satisfying your intellectual curiosity, and so on. The last thing I want is to see it identified in the public eye with terrorism or drugs.

Chris

Sun Jul 01 2007, 07:02PM

Registered Member #8 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 04:34AM
Location: Harlowton, MT, United States
Posts: 214

It is sad how many of you disregard, and in fact don't even believe the problem we are having with paranoia about science. That's why it has gotten so bad - yes, it is BECAUSE of people's nonchalant and disbelieving attitude that it has been allowed to get so bad. Aknowledging it and speaking out against it is the only way it may ever be improved or stopped, and yes this will no doubt draw some bad attention from the powers that be (afterall, they WANT this atmosphere of harsh control so people will support them blindly and out of fear). The government and police have been sneaky about working it in to our culture and have done so very successfully without raising a large outcry. This is no accident, and they know just how to do this by playing on people's emotions to support it and natural suspicion of "tinfoil hatters" to disregard the severity of it. They have trained you to see peace and prosperity where there is fear and coercion, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a looney. Remember how successfully propaganda like this was implemented in Nazi Germany. They have even convinced a large portion of us here that there is no problem, I see. Skepticism is being used as a great tool for keeping people to in the dark, and since scientists are naturally skeptical it is no surprise that many of you see my objections as akin to conspiracy theorists, UFO/free energy/paranormal believers, and all the other stereotypical nuts. It is obvious that many of you started reading my posts with the pre-conceived notion that I am in fact such a nut, and thus did not grasp the points I have made.

While it's true that most of the people I associate with are fascinated and such by my hobbies in science, and I'm sure many here share the same experience, that is not a typical cross-section of the public. While mainstream America is perceiving our hobbies as something to fear, we are perceiving those wild perceptions as nonexistant, and hence it will be able to get MUCH worse before it can ever get better. It will be interesting and horrible to see how quenched our hobbies are in 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, but I suspect the problem will become so glaringly obvious that not even the most skeptical of you will be able to deny its existance.

Chris Russell

Sun Jul 01 2007, 07:39PM

... not Russel!
Registered Member #1 Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052

Chris, if you want to believe that there is a massive conspiracy in place against science, knowledge, and indeed, freedom, fine. However, many here do not share your view, and I'm not interested in hosting a thread that will only serve to stir up a lot of negative sentiments. Vote in the booth, not on 4hv. If you're interested in talking about solutions to people's negative perceptions of high voltage and similar hobbies, let's have at it. Let's just leave the global conspiracy of power, the comparisons to Nazi Germany (Godwin's Law is in effect, after all), and the predictions of utter doom at the door.

Tesladownunder

Mon Jul 02 2007, 12:50AM

Registered Member #10 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 09:45AM
Location: Bunbury, Australia
Posts: 1424

In Australia we put our tin foil hats on and jump in the pool.

Australia is not a gun society. Guns are rare. There has not been much in the way of terrorism in Australia. The main attack was in the nearby Indonesian holiday destination of Bali where 88 Australians were killed.
That triggered some anti terror suspicion reporting and a step up in security and chemical accessibility.
Nothing much that impacts on me at home. Nevertheless much of what I do contravenes some code or other so I keep a lower profile in my home town.
TDU

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