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... not Russel! Registered Member #1
Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
Okay, CM, that's it. I told you to use the suggestion forum if you had any more suggestions or criticisms to dwell on. At this point I've talked to quite large percentage of our active membership, and not a single one of them has suggested that I do anything other than ban you from the site.
The fact that have been allowed to break rules, and spew unfounded allegations and junk science for so long stands as a testament to the extreme amount of tolerance and restraint that we've exercised so far. However, even my patience has a limit. You are no longer welcome here. Goodbye.
Anyone else who has some serious ideas on how to improve the community, feel free to engage in a civil discussion on the suggestion board. We do take suggestions, and we do take them seriously. Be warned, however, that any further grandstanding will result in disciplinary action, up to and including a ban from this site. Criticism has a place, and the chatting board is not it.
Registered Member #63
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425
Steve Conner wrote ...
Bill Beatty and CM: The two of you seem to have a colossal axe to grind. Can't you get your heads round the following: [...] 2) We have no obligation to give you a right to free speech. You didn't pay to join. Since we provide 4hv.org as a free service, we can run it exactly how we please. We run it the way that we have found to be effective, in terms of retaining membership and minimizing flame warring. [...] You guys are probably the thin end of a wedge that would turn us into IU or JLN Labs if it was driven home, and we're not about to let you pull that off.
And even non-moderators like me (that's non-fascists, to CM and Bill) see it coming, too.
Eric wrote ...
I would rather see moderation, even if that means my toes get stepped on from time to time.
An essential principle of a civilized forum with civilized discussion.
EastVoltResearch wrote ...
And I find it especially rude and disrespectful to come onto this forum and accusing the members and staff of intellectual bigotry.
EVR hits the nail on the head here -- this annoyed me especially. Whining about structure and civility when your postcount is in single-digits demonstrates minimum participation, and implies minimum-to-no prior reading of the forum or an understanding of our diverse membership.
Chris Russell wrote ... At this point I've talked to quite large percentage of our active membership, and not a single one of them has suggested that I do anything other than ban you from the site.
The fact that have been allowed to break rules, and spew unfounded allegations and junk science for so long stands as a testament to the extreme amount of tolerance and restraint that we've exercised so far.
A lot of the people here were put off not by pseudoscience, but by shitstirring. Shitstirring isn't ignorance, inexperience, or stupidity -- it's plain malice. CM (and to some extent, Bill's) choice to "play politics" with the entire readership, when private correspondence would have been more appropriate, shows through as destructive; the aim was not to refine the forum manner, but to break the relationship between our older and newer members.
Banned on April 8th, 2007. Registered Member #597
Joined: Thu Mar 22 2007, 03:33AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 16
I dropped by this forum because the automatic signup was finally working. I've read 4HV on and off in the past, and wanted to see if it was something I could recommend to the amateur science community.
I now very much regret that decision.
> I hope that I'm not insulting any members, but I feel that this forum is mainly for amateur/profesional technicians/engineers - not really scientists.
Bingo.
This is clearly an engineers forum. It's all about "my TC is bigger than your TC." Anyone trying to do amateur science... please go elsewhere, you aren't wanted here. (Witness the odd confusion over the "Runaway Breakdown" thread at 4hv.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?
22714 People are arguing about where it belongs (some of it via private messages), and the glaring obvious problem is: supposedly it's inappropriate for HV or General or Projects, and... there's no "amateur science" section here.
I'm about to go elsewhere. But nobody will know this, because a moderator will certainly delete this post as they did several others that are the least bit critical of how 4HV is run. I might reconsider. But first every single one of those posts needs to be un-deleted.
Registered Member #63
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425
Oh pahhhhhhhh...
wrote ...
I've read 4HV on and off in the past...
Ah, I'm glad it was already good reading, even when you weren't contributing.
...[i]
wrote ... wanted to see if it was something I could recommend to the amateur science community.
Hmm 'THE amateur science community' -- and I suppose that neatly excludes us and 4HV. More realistically, it's the other way round. I'll say that as a part of the amateur science community, Bill, I would recommend it to you.
wrote ...
This is clearly an engineers forum.
No, Sulaiman quite clearly stated that this forum supports the 'amateur' (as well as professional technical and engineering) community. The amateurs here (like me) agree that what's so unique and admirable about 4HV is it allows amateurs and engineers, alike, to mingle.
wrote ... It's all about "my TC is bigger than your TC."
Actually, there's a fair bit of "my TC is smaller than your TC" that goes on here, too. It wouldn't be much of a forum if our members didn't strive to bigger and better things, would it?
wrote ... Anyone trying to do amateur science... please go elsewhere, you aren't wanted here.
That would hold true... if by 'amateur science', you mean 'pseudoscience'.
wrote ... I'm about to go elsewhere. But nobody will know this...
Aw, *tear*. Don't worry, we'll know.
wrote ... ...because a moderator will certainly delete this post...
Only if you're breaking the rules and being an arsehat.
wrote ... I might reconsider. But first every single one of those posts needs to be un-deleted.
Oh yes -- hold the moderators to task; that'll earn you some brownie points!
The posts were deleted for reasons cited either A) within the thread, and/or B) in private messages sent to you. Where I saw posts by you and/or CM being deleted, there were even direct, prior warnings. When you specifically undermine the rules and the warnings, don't be surprised that the moderators did what they said they would do. And you, knowing full well what would happen, went ahead anyway. Meh, you were provocative.
What disappoints me is that when you and/or CM were quietly course-corrected, you guys consistently wanted to start a noisemaking episode. Is it that hard to just enjoy our forum the way it has evolved?
Registered Member #27
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
I'm about to go elsewhere. But nobody will know this, because a moderator will certainly delete this post as they did several others that are the least bit critical of how 4HV is run. I might reconsider. But first every single one of those posts needs to be un-deleted.
This is the text you appended to a post about runaway electrons on the General science forum:
Also...
To this earlier comment: "There seems to be some sort of ritualistic initiation rite that some newbies are put through here especially if you bring up topics that aren't generally found in a college text book.",
...WAVERIDER responded: "This is patently not true. "
Oh really? Then to exactly what does "Noop slapping" refer? And "More Noobs, and its Lunch time,"? That such things are freely advertised here indicates to me a bully-tolerant board policy. On civilized boards used by technical professionals, certainly nobody would ever be *proud* of such things, or ever dare to freely admit to them. It's equivalent to saying "please ban me ASAP and permanently, I'm an unrepentant bully with a known habit of attacking newcomers."
But perhaps I'm mistaken. To exactly what does "Noop slapping" refer, and "More Noobs, and its Lunch time,"?
This is the rule you broke:
A. Stay on topic. When posting in a thread, look at two things. The subject, and the first post. Those two give you an idea of what is and what isn't okay in the thread. It's tempting to look at the most recent few posts and make a judgement call, but don't do it! If you need to go off-topic, create a whole new thread in the appropriate board.
This was my PM to you:
I removed some off topic content from your "Runaway breakdown" thread. I saved a copy in case you want to start a new thread on the appropriate forum.
The topic is defined by your topic line and first post. Everything else should be in a new thread or a PM.
If you feel that someone is breaking the rules then send them a PM, start a thread on the Moderator / Admin Contact forum or contact Chris Russell (or me if Chris is not available).
After I sent you the PM you posted a new post in the same thread that was even more off topic, I deleted that too. I sent you a PM about that also. There is nothing unreasonable about this, you broke the rules that you agreed to follow when you joined. I tried politely to inform you how you should proceed in a correct manner. I even took the bother to save your text.
Now you demand the rules to be bent double for you to stay, that is completely unheard of. If you say sorry for not bothering to read the rules and disrupting the forum then you might be allowed to stay.
Registered Member #15
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068
wrote ...
I'm about to go elsewhere. But nobody will know this, because a moderator will certainly delete this post as they did several others that are the least bit critical of how 4HV is run.
You say that as if we actually cared. We don't. But at least you got the hint . . .
Interestingly enough, if you actually go visit Bill Beaty's science forum, there are a fair amount of rules for posting. I think its pretty disrespectful on Bill's part to impose rules on his forum, but not abide by them on this forum.
Science Hobbyist - General Science Forum All of your GENERAL SCIENCE needs. All technical topics permitted, including theoretical discussion. Please stay relatively on-topic here.
Experimenters' Corner Use this forum if you are actually performing experiments or building technical projects, or to ask for or provide help or direct knowledge with such projects. Stay on-topic!
Alternate Views This forum is for discussing ideas and views which are either not mainstream or are controversial, or are not readily provable, or are highly theoretical. Also use this forum for ALL debates on religion/creationism. Do your best at bringing up your case in a scientific and respectable manner. Personal attacks will be taken very seriously - at the risk of being banned from these forums, NO FLAMEWARS.
GENERAL CHATROOM for the scientifically-minded. The place for conversation of a much more frivolous, speculative, or off-topic nature!
Registered Member #69
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 07:42AM
Location:
Posts: 116
As an (in)famous amateur scientist/tinkerer I think Bill would have been a great addition to 4hv. It sucks that it didn't work out. I can't defend his obvious breakage of the forum rules, but some people could have been a little (lot) more polite than they were too. If you look at the response to his first post for example... Who would have appreciated that kind of BS on their first post?
Do we actually HAVE to be prickly little dickheads to neophytes? Is that a necessary part of enforcing the rules? I can see why someone would say F your rules after getting that kind of welcome.
Registered Member #30
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
No, we don't have to be "prickly little dickheads". It's just an unfortunate habit that I try to avoid, and wish other long-term members would do the same.
I think this rift goes deeper than a few mean sniping posts, though: it's about the question of what different groups of people consider to be valid science. If you take a look at Bill's forum, and compare its content to 4hv, you will get an idea of the paradigm shift we're talking about.
Because we are looking at each other from opposite sides of a paradigm shift, of course 4hv appears to Bill as a dull engineers' forum, and his forum looks to us like a festering pit of junk science. Paradigm problems like these are what all the world's worst conflicts are made of, and the only solutions are for one side to undergo the shift, or for the two sides to be separated from each other, or for them to fight to the death.
BTW, I apologize for my "Noobslapping" avatar, it was a reference to the indie film "Trainspotting". I got rid of it as soon as I heard a complaint.
Banned on April 8th, 2007. Registered Member #597
Joined: Thu Mar 22 2007, 03:33AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 16
Bjørn Bæverfjord wrote ...
After I sent you the PM you posted a new post in the same thread that was even more off topic, I deleted that too. I sent you a PM about that also.
No you did not.
I have no idea of what else of mine you deleted, or whether it exhibited the terrible high crime of being "off topic."
Please tell me here and now the second thing you deleted, not hidden away on private mail where nobody knows what you're doing.
Also I note that you privately accused CM of being a conspiracy theorist. His crime? CM is obviously a conspiracy theorist because... he thinks that "noobslapping" is a long tradition encouraged on 4HV.
Damn conspiracy theorist. They're not wanted here, eh? Why don't you just ban him and be done?
Am I angry? You ******* better believe it.
And "allowed to stay" has no meaning. You couldn't keep me here.
So are you now going to edit my message to remove this "off topic" sentence? Please do so, and then I can leave permanently.
AH! I know what you deleted. It was in chat I think. It was an explanation of the ancient academic standard of the sanctity of the written word. About university people seeing as a genuine criminal act ANY modification of their words, and I suggested that you contact PHYS-L forum of 700 university level physicsts to get their opinion about what you've been doing to my messages on 4HV. Please post that deleted material here. Or for some reason are you afraid of what I said?
Hmmm. Seeing the top post in this thread, my above message is PRECISELY on topic. The AIP was fined $500,000 for retribution which they enacted against a loud and annoying critic. Odd coincidence, eh?
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Scandal: AIP & Physics Today found guilty, $500,000 judgement
