Welcome
Username or Email:

Password:


Missing Code




[ ]
[ ]
Online
  • Guests: 34
  • Members: 0
  • Newest Member: omjtest
  • Most ever online: 396
    Guests: 396, Members: 0 on 12 Jan : 12:51
Members Birthdays:
All today's birthdays', congrats!
Avi (41)
Jannick Hagen (15)


Next birthdays
07/10 Sparcz (69)
07/11 Bfeigum (35)
07/12 genious 7 (32)
Contact
If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.


Special Thanks To:
  • Aaron Holmes
  • Aaron Wheeler
  • Adam Horden
  • Alan Scrimgeour
  • Andre
  • Andrew Haynes
  • Anonymous000
  • asabase
  • Austin Weil
  • barney
  • Barry
  • Bert Hickman
  • Bill Kukowski
  • Blitzorn
  • Brandon Paradelas
  • Bruce Bowling
  • BubeeMike
  • Byong Park
  • Cesiumsponge
  • Chris F.
  • Chris Hooper
  • Corey Worthington
  • Derek Woodroffe
  • Dalus
  • Dan Strother
  • Daniel Davis
  • Daniel Uhrenholt
  • datasheetarchive
  • Dave Billington
  • Dave Marshall
  • David F.
  • Dennis Rogers
  • drelectrix
  • Dr. John Gudenas
  • Dr. Spark
  • E.TexasTesla
  • eastvoltresearch
  • Eirik Taylor
  • Erik Dyakov
  • Erlend^SE
  • Finn Hammer
  • Firebug24k
  • GalliumMan
  • Gary Peterson
  • George Slade
  • GhostNull
  • Gordon Mcknight
  • Graham Armitage
  • Grant
  • GreySoul
  • Henry H
  • IamSmooth
  • In memory of Leo Powning
  • Jacob Cash
  • James Howells
  • James Pawson
  • Jeff Greenfield
  • Jeff Thomas
  • Jesse Frost
  • Jim Mitchell
  • jlr134
  • Joe Mastroianni
  • John Forcina
  • John Oberg
  • John Willcutt
  • Jon Newcomb
  • klugesmith
  • Leslie Wright
  • Lutz Hoffman
  • Mads Barnkob
  • Martin King
  • Mats Karlsson
  • Matt Gibson
  • Matthew Guidry
  • mbd
  • Michael D'Angelo
  • Mikkel
  • mileswaldron
  • mister_rf
  • Neil Foster
  • Nick de Smith
  • Nick Soroka
  • nicklenorp
  • Nik
  • Norman Stanley
  • Patrick Coleman
  • Paul Brodie
  • Paul Jordan
  • Paul Montgomery
  • Ped
  • Peter Krogen
  • Peter Terren
  • PhilGood
  • Richard Feldman
  • Robert Bush
  • Royce Bailey
  • Scott Fusare
  • Scott Newman
  • smiffy
  • Stella
  • Steven Busic
  • Steve Conner
  • Steve Jones
  • Steve Ward
  • Sulaiman
  • Thomas Coyle
  • Thomas A. Wallace
  • Thomas W
  • Timo
  • Torch
  • Ulf Jonsson
  • vasil
  • Vaxian
  • vladi mazzilli
  • wastehl
  • Weston
  • William Kim
  • William N.
  • William Stehl
  • Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: General Science and Electronics
« Previous topic | Next topic »   

Propeller Physics and VABs Program.

Move Thread LAN_403
Patrick
Tue Dec 23 2014, 08:29AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
Andy wrote ...

Hi Patrick, can give you a picture of a setup, that can be used to workout the props, but don't know if I should spend the effort, do you want a third opinion?

do you want the machine diamgram? or the dyno setup?

and yes another opinions are welcome.
Back to top
Ash Small
Tue Dec 23 2014, 10:09AM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Ok, just to re-count where I am with this, assuming a drag bucket from Mach 0.5 to Mach 0.7 tip speed, we want hover at Mach 0.5, so we want sufficient Cl for hover with minimum Cd.

We can work this out a number of ways, for example, 'thin airfoil theory' for each blade section, but XFOIL has been proven to work, so if we can get it to run, that's probably the best option.

I'll look into this some more, though.

EDIT: I think I've got XFOIL 6.99 for windows running on my laptop. It's prompting for input. I'll have another look at the user manual shades

EDIT: I'm reading up on X-Windows, and it looks like there are versions for LINUX. I need to read some more. I'm not sure if we need to use a specific UNIX version yet. There are also versions that run under Windows.

EDIT: "X- Win32 allows remote display of UNIX windows on Windows machines in a normal window alongside the other Windows applications" Link2

Costs $285 though. I'll look for a free equivalent. It does have a 30 day free trial period though.

EDIT: Here's a screenshot of what happened when I entered NACA 0012 into XFOIL. I assume I have to run X-windows at the same time, either on another machine or the same one, but I've not worked out the details yet. It seems to be doing something though, and there are loads of other commands to use amazed


1419348590 3414 FT1630 Screensgot


Not quite sure what this means yet, but it's certainly plotting something. All I've downloaded is the three files required for XFOIL, and it seems to be plotting stuff:


1419364517 3414 FT1630 Plot


I guess I need to play with it some more wink


1419366960 3414 FT1630 Plot

amazed
Back to top
Andy
Tue Dec 23 2014, 08:15PM
Andy Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874
Old school way of finding the data wink

1419365722 4266 FT167327 Prop
Back to top
Ash Small
Tue Dec 23 2014, 10:07PM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
I think I'm starting to get the hang of it


1419372460 3414 FT167327 Plot


This allows us to analyze the rotor at any section at any sub-sonic velocity. It also tells you if any part of the airflow over the rotor goes super-sonic. In fact, I think it tells us pretty much all we need to know. We do need to input each section manually, though, but it allows us to compare different sections.

I'm pretty busy for a day or two, but I'll play with it some more as and when I get the chance wink
Back to top
Patrick
Wed Dec 24 2014, 07:01AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
so cool ! thanks for the help, ive seen that airfoil with the arrow vectors somewhere. im continuing to look at the notes youve written. i have to rewind a motor but ill keep checking in.
Back to top
Andy
Wed Dec 24 2014, 10:07PM
Andy Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874
Hi Patrick

A sidenote on the prop surroundings
Link2
Link2

May stop the losses from when the Uav is hovering compared to moving at speed.
Back to top
Patrick
Sun Dec 28 2014, 01:12AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
I now attempt to understand a term ive never heard before, "solidity"

QUESTION:

I am doing a study on propeller design and have some questions to which I have been unable to answer.

1. I have read and article that claims to have had success with higher efficiencies of propellers at high activity factors. Please could you give me the definition of activity factor? Is this similar to solidarity?

2. I note that some newer propellers use a scimitar shape. What is the reason for using this shape?

ANSWER from Brent Wellman on October 27, 1999:

Good question. This is one that doesn't come up a lot due to the nature of helicopter rotors versus propellers.

Activity factor is a measure of how much power any given propeller can absorb. It is roughly equal to solidity times a constant for any particular prop.

Here are the details:

Solidity is simply the ratio of the total blade area of the propeller to the disk swept out when the prop turns. The blade area is roughly the length (called the radius) times the width (called the chord). That works well for untwisted rectangular blades, but there are few serious props like that, so engineers use integral calculus to figure the area of the blades. They integrate the chord (width) over the radius (length). For reasons known only to them, propeller engineers tend to integrate from 15% of the radius outward while helicopter engineers like to start at 0% (propeller hubs tend to be much larger than helicopter hubs in relation to prop size...).


It is useful to know solidity, because the pressure difference across the prop disk moves the slip stream (propelling the aircraft).
The pressure differences between blade surfaces maintain this overall pressure gradient (they *are* wings, after all). The blades though, as rotating wings, will only maintain so much thrust per unit blade area, so knowing the ratio of areas gives you an idea of how fast you can make the slip stream motivate...sorta.

In props, some blade area is better than other blade area.


It turns out that low solidity yields high efficiency. Therefore, low-speed, low-power props tend to have few blades and they are skinny (we say short chord, or high aspect ratio). The Cessna 172 has a two-bladed McCauley prop, and it does just fine with it, thank you.

It turns out that if you really want to drive a prop to high speeds and pump a load of power into it, you need higher solidity. The engineers who worked on this problem in the 1930's developed a prop measure called activity factor. It appears to have been defined to yield a nice number "around" 100, than for any other purpose, but it *does* give an apples-to-apples comparison of propeller designs with respect to their ability to absorb power efficiently.

As I said above, all blade area is not created equal in props. Bits near the tip tend to spin faster, encounter higher dynamic pressures, generate more lift (thrust), sweep over a larger portion of the propeller disk, and so on as compared to bits closer to the spinner. So engineers developed a "power weighted" solidity measurement called "activity factor." It is measured per blade and doesn't account for the number of blades as solidity does.

It is defined as follows (and words are not as good as mathematical notation for this): Activity factor equals (100,000 divided by prop diameter to the fifth power) times the integral, from 15% radius to the tip, of the radius cubed times the chord at that radius, with respect *to* the radius. If you don't have the math, don't sweat it.

Activity factor was important as high speed became important to the sacrifice of efficiency. Prop blades designed for high speed put more area near the tip to put more lifting area where it would do the most good. They also tend to have more blades (4 or 5) for the same reason. Look at the prop on a P-51 Mustang, for instance.

Such paddle-shaped blades are really quite good at high speeds, and are still in use. The C-130 Hercules transport uses the Hamilton Standard Hydramatic constant speed prop. Its activity factor is 162 per blade.

The Cessna 172 prop mentioned above has an activity factor of 103 per blade.

You have described props with a scimitar shape. This was the result of some prop research done at NASA Lewis (now *Glenn*) Research Center in the 70's and 80's in an attempt to design an efficient prop designed to operate at Mach .8 or so (nearly jet transport speeds).


At extremely high power settings, the pressure difference is enough to stall out prop tips. Blade area is moved inboard and the tip is tapered to allow more of the blade area to continue to operate efficiently. Also, if high Mach numbers are seen at the tip, it is useful to sweep back the tips, like the wings of a high-speed transport, and for the same reasons. A swept blade, however, would tend to break off at the base if spun at great speed, therefore, the inner portion is swept *forward* to balance things out (at least overall). The result is a blade the shape of a scimitar.

Such experimental props have been reported to have activity factors of 203 per blade. See NASA-TM-X-73612, Mikkelson, et al, "Design and Performance of Energy Efficient Propellers for Mach 0.8 Cruise." It is available from the Society of Automotive Engineers as paper #770458.
Back to top
Andy
Sun Dec 28 2014, 01:24AM
Andy Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874
Simple answer, its like old wind mills with 20 blades, high torgue but the eff is 10 percent, were as a lift design would be near max eff, if you want to increase torque it would be better that the motor turns a gear that is the same size of the prop, ether way don,t use soldaity as some thing to aim for
Back to top
Ash Small
Sun Dec 28 2014, 03:47PM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Patrick wrote ...

I now attempt to understand a term ive never heard before, "solidity"

.

Props with 'high solidity' by definition have 'high disc loading', so have low efficiency. We've already established that we want low disc loading.

He's talking Cessna's here, not 'copters. What we want is something like a conventional heli blade, but because it's fixed, we want a bit of twist and maybe sopme other changes in section.

I think we really just need to consider Mach speed, and lift to drag ratio. The faster the blade section velocity, the smaller section you need to generate required lift, as long as nothing goes supersonic and we stay in the drag bucket.
Back to top
Patrick
Mon Dec 29 2014, 08:18PM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
ok we should start with getting and keeping the drag bucket in the first quadrant and the tip below M0.7 ?
Back to top

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob

Go to:

Powered by e107 Forum System
 
Legal Information
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.