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4hv.org :: Forums :: General Science and Electronics
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Propeller Physics and VABs Program.

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Patrick
Thu Dec 18 2014, 09:05AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
i can get a prop to 5k rpm. (been working on it the past week smile )
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Patrick
Fri Dec 19 2014, 09:45PM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
with regards to disc loading, should i just divide mass into area ?
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Ash Small
Fri Dec 19 2014, 11:01PM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Patrick wrote ...

with regards to disc loading, should i just divide mass into area ?

Yes, but it's per prop. You divide mass by number of props first, or you get the wrong result.

There are a few points I need to mention. I think we can DESIGN a prop that will have laminar flow from Mach 0.5 to ~Mach 0.7, but if we can't manufacture it accurately enough it won't work.

We've reached the point (30" props) where Mach 0.5 = 4k RPM. If we go bigger, disc loading decreases and RPM decrease.

I think the starting point is a modified NACA 0012 profile.
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Patrick
Sat Dec 20 2014, 01:28AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
ok let me look at the prop "makability" since im out of classes for a month.


theres also this comment im studying:
Link2
RCgroups "scirocco" says:

if you focus on weight and Kv, you will get into the ballpark and it will also allow you to compare motors regardless of labelling and vendor.

Building on Doug's comments above, weight straight away is a pretty valid indicator of power handling, again independent of inflated vendor claims. You can exploit weight in a number of ways. First off, if you know your power requirement, it tells you you should be looking at motors of at least a certain weight. Or if you have a tail heavy model you may choose to use a bigger motor than strictly necessary for power handling, noting that electric motors are a lot lighter than their glow cousins, where it counts the most right up front. Or if you've got a specialised requirement such as a 30 sec motor run in a glider, you might be willing to push a small motor hard, accepting lower efficiency for weight savings.

Max current rating is important, but don't be afraid to discount it if it is giving you unrealistically high power levels based on motor weight.

Then Kv. First off, don't think of Kv as a rating, which implies a figure of merit. It is a characteristic, a bit like colour. Red is not more colour than green, just different. Similarly low or high Kv is not better or worse, it's just a characteristic you choose to suit your application.

Kv HAS to be considered together with voltage and IMO is NOT analagous to high and low gear ratios for that reason.

Looking at your statement "a lower KV rating could be used with a higher diameter/pitch prop to produce more torque / climbing power,". More accurately, at the same voltage, a lower Kv motor of the same size as a higher Kv motor will use a larger diameter prop to at lower rpm to achieve the same power. While it is true that at the same current the lower Kv motor will have higher torque (torque is proportional to the inverse of Kv x current), both the low Kv and high Kv motor at the same current will have the same power (torque x rpm), remembering this is a same voltage comparison. If you only need to fly slowly, the slower turning big prop will be a better solution as the larger diameter prop will be a bit more efficient, but the tradeoff is top speed will be limited.

If we take out the common voltage, then your statement is no longer valid. For motors of the same size, 6S and Kv=400 and 4S and Kv=600 will run the same size props and require about the same power - just at higher current for the 4S.

Ron is very generous to quote an older post - there is an expanded discussion on motor selection methodology in my blog that might help some.

Keep the good questions coming
From the green statement, I think we see the Electronic Speed Control, and motor acting as if it were an SMPS.
From the red statement, I thinking that this describes F=ma, and KE = (1/2)m *V^2
(the 4S means 14.8 volts, LiPo)
(the 6S means 22.2 volts, LiPo)


1419044361 2431 FT1630 Motora
The short fat one really gave up the smoke in class, while demonstrating...very embarrassing.


1419044361 2431 FT1630 Motorb
Here you can see ive colorized the stator for rewinding, and recoated with epoxy. ill rewind from 10 turns to 16 turns. the small one ill explain later. its the BC3530/10 thats important.


As for the propeller article, im totally perplexed by the following:
Now it is necessary to determine the blade angle versus the radius, the helical path each portion of the blade follows as it passes through the air. Without consideration of the AOA, the tangent of the helical path at any radius is obtained by dividing the design forward speed by the rotational velocity at that radius. For a plane with a design speed of 200 mph, we multiply by 22/15 to get the speed in feet/second. To get the rotational velocity at a given radius, we multiply the radius, in inches, by 2 x π x rpm/60 x radius/12. With the engine operated at its rated 2800 rpm, we would obtain 63.4 degrees at 6-inch radius, 36.9 degrees at 15-inch, and 21.8 degrees at 30-inch.
I have no idea how these magical angles were calculated. i may have to brute force the math with AutoCAD.


EDIT: Got a few hours in and solved at least some of these problems.

1419059851 2431 FT1630 Wikihelix
Not being able to make head way with pitch, slip, and the tangent of a helix I went to the great all know wiki. bailing me out of trouble once again.


1419059851 2431 FT1630 Helix4
here are the measruements id like to reverse "math-matify" from the ellipse article. 6", 15" and 30" radius for a manned 72" standard prop.


1419059851 2431 FT1630 Helix3
Green is 6" , red 15" and blue is 30" radii, pink is center.


1419059851 2431 FT1630 Helix1
Nearly perfect matches for the article.


1419059851 2431 FT1630 Helix2
47 turns of the prop, traveling at 3516 inches per/second. I reduced this to 74.8 inches long, one revolution.

I still don't know the math, but at least I know whats being described.



EDIT 2 :


1419062479 2431 FT1630 Thrust2

I still don't see where these numbers come from. 0.45 and 0.89. (I should mention the hypotenuse is always 1)

EDIT: im very tired, but I thinkin the above triangle the degree with hyptonese and 90 degree corner solves for those two sides.

If I can solve this triangle, then it can be applied as an integral from root to tip.






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Ash Small
Sat Dec 20 2014, 12:26PM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Had a quick look through, and I agree that the motor itself has to be considered last.

Also, the 'propeller theory' bit. All the maths I've done so far is for hover mode. That article mentions a plane with a top speed of 200MPH. While we do need to do some maths at max rpm, I think we need to concentrate on hover at Mach 0.5.

There are fundamental differences between how the 'RC' crowd look at this, and how NASA and the helicopter designers look at it.

Looking at it from 'disc loading' and 'Mach number' is not really anything like 'diameter' and 'rpm'.

We have the choice of using 'RC' maths, or 'NASA' maths.

(The RC maths is based on figures originally published by the prop manufacturers to make it easy for their customers to get an approximate figure)

EDIT: My current understanding is that we want Mach 0.5 tip speed at hover, and that any part of the blade that travels faster than Mach 0.5 at max RPM (when tip speed is ~Mach 0.625-0.7) wants it's max thickness pushed back towards 50% chord length.

Angle of attack is calculated using the relevant Mach number at hover. (o.5 for tip, less for rest of blade)

Do you understand the 'drag bucket' theory?

It comes down to Mach numbers and lift/drag ratios. (I think the 'submarine thread' comes down to something very similar as well wink )

(I was looking at NACA profiles the other day, and all of a sudden, it just leaped off the page at me, and fell into place.)

The only real difference between this and a real copter is we have fixed blades, so we design the blade for hover at Mach 0.5 tipspeed. This is fixed by our design. We then design for a drag bucket from Mach 0.5 up to as close to Mach 0.7 as we can get, just like NASA does. Everything else is already fixed.

Once you understand the relevance of the Mach numbers, everything else just falls into place. This is where the max tip speed of ~70 feet per second comes from, the top of the drag bucket, and hover has to be at the bottom of the drag bucket. The whole 'operating region' has to be inside the drag bucket, or, to put it another way, the drag bucket IS the operating region.

Lift to drag ratio is already defined by these parameters (from thin airfoil theory).

The only thing we need to adjust is the NACA profile at different blade sections.
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Patrick
Sun Dec 21 2014, 02:30AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
ok, we'll put the ellipse propeller on hold. the purpose of that research was to see if it would scale to our size and if more airmass could be inducted at the root, thus decreases the overall diameter, without loosing the advantage of the larger diameters.

be that as it may. ill try to 3D print a root-hub mold section to tight tolerances of the NACA 0012. ill twist it i guess to that similar to the APC prop. Ill initially start with the pitch at 5.5 inches. all the props at 14" or larger that i find tend to be 5, 5.5, 8 or 9" in pitch.

Im also rewinding the previous motors to test a 1400kv and 800kv configuration turning the same 14x5.5 multirotor prop. both at 11.1 volts.


1419132915 2431 FT1630 Naca
NACA 16009 profile


1419133188 2431 FT1630 Naca 0012
NACA 0010 profile


1419134283 2431 FT1630 Naca2
NACA 4308 profile. Id like to verify this one with the mold.

we can only get the full drag bucket in the first quadrant with unsymetric airfoils right? the under camber does that.

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Ash Small
Sun Dec 21 2014, 10:20AM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
If we need 25N thrust at 4k rpm (Mach 0.5), we need to calculate angle of attack and chord length, I think.

I need to read a bit more. I saw a calculator that analyzed for different Mach numbers and, I think, did drag bucket calculations.

We'll get the lift with a very low angle at Mach 0.5. This results in very low drag.

I've not yet started the pitch or chord length calculations. Hopefully I'll get a chance to look at this again later.

EDIT: I think we just calculate the chord length and pitch for each blade section that gives the lift we require with minimum drag, and we have the optimum design,

I do need to have another look at the detail, though.

Blade section comes into play here too, we need enough CF to give the strength we need, but no more. If we put all these figures in we'll get an optimum design out.

Mach 0.5 to Mach 0.7 is apparently the optimum range, from what I read, but I'll re-read and post links.

I think this is where most of the info came from: Link2 But I did find something where you vary the Mach number.

EDIT: Just reading this at the moment:
]ada393685.pdf[/file]

Just trying to get a 'feel' for this stuff wink

Well, it says this

"For a fixed airfoil shape and a fixed Mach
number, the lift is almost a linear function of the angle of attack"

I suppose I'm going to have to download XFOIL and try to get it to run.......I'll do a bit more background reading first, though.

Well, I've read the XFOIL user notes nere: Link2 and I think it' sounds fairly straightforward, we input the data and it predicts the drag wink
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Patrick
Sun Dec 21 2014, 10:04PM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
i dont know how to run or if i can run unix.
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Ash Small
Sun Dec 21 2014, 10:21PM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Patrick wrote ...

i dont know how to run or if i can run unix.

This will take a bit of sorting. I think there is a version that doesn't need UNIX, but doesn't have the 'Windows interface' (sic)

UNIX is basically LINUX, sort of, except LINUX is free.

I do think XFOIL is worth looking into.
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Andy
Tue Dec 23 2014, 03:52AM
Andy Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874
Hi Patrick, can give you a picture of a setup, that can be used to workout the props, but don't know if I should spend the effort, do you want a third opinion?
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