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Evolution vs. Creationism

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IamSmooth
Thu Sept 28 2006, 03:26AM
IamSmooth Registered Member #190 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 12:00AM
Location:
Posts: 1567
EDY19 wrote ...

The lowest recorded growth rate we have for Western Europe is 0.377%. Let us imagine that mankind (Homo sapien) has been around for say, 50,000 years; a figure that is just a fraction of the time evolutionists claim. Using this 0.377% figure, after 50,000 years the world would be a staggering 10^82

This assumption is based on a linear growth rate. In fact, the human growth rate has been exponentially rising thanks to technology and medicine. Only a hundred years ago maternal mortality from birth was about 1/100. Now it is about 1/10000 in the US.

People died from poor shelter, loss of crops, plagues and wars. In fact, the population growth was close to nothing until the last few thousand years.
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Coyote Wilde
Thu Sept 28 2006, 05:10AM
Coyote Wilde Registered Member #175 Joined: Tue Feb 14 2006, 09:32PM
Location: Sudbury, ON
Posts: 111
Carbon dating only works back to 60k; you need to use other isotopes after that; usually the argon-potassium decay chain.
But of course, the creationists can always argue that God made rocks and artifacts with isotopic ratios that only look old to our testing-- like the dinosaur bones, there to confuse us and test our faith.
Do your creationists deny that natural selection happens, or just that we evolved from "lesser" beings? I mean, there's such a massive bulk of evidence for natural selection, I don't see anyone rationally being able to argue against that. Unless anti-biotic resistant bacteria are another one of God's nasty tricks.

It comes down to Faith, again. Faith is not rational; if you believe you can rationalize any arguments you'd like to support that. If you don't, you can rationally argue, though I suppose people could argue you're holding an irrational belief in what you've learned in science class.
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Bored Chemist
Thu Sept 28 2006, 05:52AM
Bored Chemist Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022
What I have often wondered is; since we find plenty of evidence for an ancient earth, if there is a "creator" is (s)he lying to us, and if so why?
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Nik
Thu Sept 28 2006, 06:13AM
Nik Registered Member #53 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:31AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 638
A teacher of mine had a friend who taught physics in a university. This physics teacher also belived that the earth is at mose 20k years old and that the bible, is for the most part, a literal story of what happend. Kinda strange that there are so many hightly educated people who belive this.
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ragnar
Thu Sept 28 2006, 07:33AM
ragnar Registered Member #63 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1425
Bjorn will lynch me for this wink, but here's some food-for-thought:

**stirs the pot** =P

wrote ...
"Intelligent Design" Is about Religion versus Reason

By Keith Lockitch

In his Dec. 2 Op-Ed, "Atheists can't prove it, either," Robert Camp
criticized my Nov. 17 lecture in Irvine on "intelligent design"
creationism, though without mentioning me by name.

Camp was unhappy that, in addition to discussing the flaws of
"intelligent design," I also criticized religion in general. The
creationism controversy, he feels, is a "scientific and pedagogical
issue," not a clash between reason and religion.

But the view that "intelligent design" is a scientific position, to be
answered with scientific arguments, is--as I explained in my
talk--precisely the view its promoters are desperate to convey. Though
they have no data supporting their claims, their arguments are
carefully calculated to appear scientific and non-religious. Why? In
hope of skirting the constitutional ban on religion in public schools.
This is why the title of my lecture (which Camp also failed to
mention) was "Creationism in Camouflage: the 'Intelligent Design'
Deception."

What makes "intelligent design" an inherently religious viewpoint is
its appeal to a supernatural "designer." This appeal brings it
directly into conflict with reason, because the very notion of the
supernatural--of something "beyond" nature that defies natural
laws--is a contradiction. As I argued in my lecture, one cannot
properly oppose the efforts of "intelligent design" creationists
without rejecting their attempt to make the "supernatural" part of
science.

Although Camp, himself, claims to be "intellectually opposed to
supernatural ideas," he finds it troubling that I would dare to
proclaim in a public lecture that the idea of the "supernatural"
provably contradicts the facts of reality. Ssshhh! Don't let the
religious folks hear you!

Especially troubling to Camp, was my rejection of the belief that
supernaturalism is necessary for morality--the belief that without God
there can be no absolute standards of right and wrong. "The last thing
we need," he explains, "is a bunch of people who believe they have no
internal moral compass to be running around without their external
one."

What he ignores, however, is the possibility of a scientific, provable
code of ethics--a moral philosophy based neither on subjective,
"internal" feelings nor on "external" religious dogmas. A particularly
telling omission was Camp's failure to mention that my lecture was
sponsored by The Ayn Rand Institute (my employer). This is relevant
because Ayn Rand's ethic of rational egoism provides precisely the
alternative moral system that Camp ignores in his critique.

Rand locates absolute standards of right and wrong in the objective
requirements of human life. In her view, morality arises from the fact
that we, like all living beings, must pursue values in order to
survive. Unlike the lower animals, however, we are not pre-programmed
for survival. To define our values and guide our choices in life, we
need a code of moral principles--principles based on the unalterable
facts of human nature and of man's long-range survival needs.

Rand's ethical system--and, more generally, her philosophy of
Objectivism--comprises the positive message underlying the ideas in my
talk. But apparently, it is the very advancement of a positive system
of philosophy that Camp really objects to. He finds it "reasonable" to
be an atheist, but not to defend the view that atheism, or any other
idea in philosophy, is a provably rational viewpoint. "I think they're
wrong, too," he says, "but there is no, nor can there be, proof of
it." Strangely, he seems to think it is "unreasonable" to defend the
importance of reason.

What his viewpoint dismisses is the essential difference between
reason and faith. In reason, one accepts only conclusions one can
prove to be true--conclusions based on sensory evidence and logical
inference from such evidence. Faith, on the other hand, is belief
unsupported by facts or logic--the blind embrace of ideas despite an
absence of evidence or proof.

The only ideas that are reasonable to believe are those you know to be
true by means of reason. And when you know them to be true, it is
perfectly reasonable to argue in their defense and fight against false
ideas, like creationism, that stand opposed to them.
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WaveRider
Thu Sept 28 2006, 08:55AM
WaveRider Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500
Sometime way back on the old 4HV board, this discussion came up here.

I still think that it was a Rainbow Serpent which created all the rivers (and thereby, the world) in the age of the Dreamtime. wink I love the Dreamtime stories as told by Aboriginal Australians Link2 .. They illustrate the tenacious bond to an unforgiving land. Obviously, I do not accept them as scientific fact, but...like the stories that make up Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc..they reflect the various cultures that grew up around them...and often make ripping good reading!

As for educated engineers believing apparently absurd propositions about the earth being 6000 or 20000 years old: Engineers can be pretty blinkered in their philosophical/humanistic views. Studies of language, myth, world history, ancient migrations, geology, biology and even modern physics do not necessarily make up the curriculum of many "well educated" engineers. Hence, creationism tends to fill the gap when formulating theories about our origins.

In short, whenever faith is involved, we are pretty good at bending the truth to fit our presuppositions, no?

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Bjørn
Thu Sept 28 2006, 09:39AM
Bjørn Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
I just find it strongly perplexing to how people so well schooled in engineering and science could have beliefs so embedded in creationism that they truly believe the Earth is only 20,000 years old?
There are several studies that suggest that intellignece does not affect peoples tendency to accept beliefs as truths. There are also studies that suggest that people with higher education are more likely to believe in complete nonsense. In any case it seems to be little difference between people in their ability to be critical.


What I have often wondered is; since we find plenty of evidence for an ancient earth, if there is a "creator" is (s)he lying to us, and if so why?
If we accept that the earth is 6000 years old and what the bible says then the answer is simple. The devil plants the evidence to cause doubt in the creator.

The evidence that the earth is 6000 years old is a chain where each link is very weak. The evidence for the earth being at least a million years old consists of many independent strong links in parallel.

So if the devil planted the evidence, why is he doing the best job? The bible says he is not even omnipresent.
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HV Enthusiast
Thu Sept 28 2006, 11:38AM
HV Enthusiast Registered Member #15 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068
What I would like to know is why Adam and Eve have navels??? If Adam was created by God, and Even from the rib of Adam, then there should be no reason they have navels, right? Also, last time i checked, both man and woman have the same number of ribs . . .

Another interesting note is that there are many statements in the Bible which even the most hard lined fundamentalists have accepted as false. These include statements such as the Earth being flat, the Earth being the center of the universe, among others. If they (group) have taken that leap, then why is it so hard to take a leap that the six days that God created the world, was actually many billions of years.

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Steve Conner
Thu Sept 28 2006, 11:54AM
Steve Conner Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
Does it really matter whether the earth was created 20,000 years ago, complete with coal, oil, gas, stone age artifacts, fake fossil dinosaurs, finches with odd shaped beaks, and all the other things needed to tempt foolish scientists into believing in evolution- or whether it evolved from a glob of red hot rock 4 billion years ago? No. If the Creationists admit that God (or Satan or whoever) created all the evidence for evolution, then creationism and Darwinism are dealing with the same set of material phenomena, so there's no difference worth bothering about in real terms. It's not like being a Darwinist makes you more likely to strike oil or win the lottery.

Personally, I think what religious folk call "God" and what scientists call "The laws of physics" are both manifestations of the same thing. So I'm broadly quite happy believing in creationism and evolution at the same time, though I don't bother with that 20,000 year old hogwash ill
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Part Scavenger
Thu Sept 28 2006, 12:01PM
Part Scavenger Registered Member #79 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 11:35AM
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 673
I'm not a genius or anything, I don't have a PhD or Masters, but if you're wondering why Creationists think certain things and rationale behind it backed up by actual, Nobel prize winning scientists, read this book:

Link2

It's written by someone who was a reporter for IIRC, the New York Times, and was an atheist. Throughout the book, he takes a pretty objective look at Creationism vs Evolutionism.

Finally, what makes you think Adam and Eve had navels? I never thought about that before, but why would they?
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