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4hv.org :: Forums :: Tesla Coils
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First SSTC design - Need some critique

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DerStrom8
Sun Jun 29 2014, 04:01PM
DerStrom8 Registered Member #3704 Joined: Sun Feb 20 2011, 01:13PM
Location: Vermont, U.S.A.
Posts: 92
Dr. Dark Current wrote ...

The part you posted is a relatively slow one. Have a look at the following part numbers:

HGTG20N60A4D (a relatively old transistor, but still fast even for today's standards and should be rugged)
(or other HGTG...A4D models)
FGH40N60SMD (a more modern part) (or other FGH...SMD models)
STGW30NC60WD (or other STGW...WD models)

Thanks very much for the part numbers. Those will be really helpful. They're more expensive then I was hoping, so I'll probably hold off for the time being. I'll keep my eyes open for options, though.

Thanks,
Matt

EDIT: I found a good deal on 10x HGTG20N60A4D IGBTs, so I will probably bite--$21.80 (USD) shipped. I have yet to find a better deal than that!
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Steve Conner
Sun Jun 29 2014, 05:33PM
Steve Conner Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706
Sigurthr wrote ...

The issue is that when using a secondary base current transformer the input to the schmitt triggers is pulled to ground through the DC resistance of the CT, so there will be NO feedback.
I've always wondered why people don't bother to AC couple the feedback and DC bias the input approximately to the Schmitt trigger threshold. Seems like it would help the coil start up easier as oscillation would be sustained with a smaller signal from the CT.
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DerStrom8
Sun Jun 29 2014, 07:02PM
DerStrom8 Registered Member #3704 Joined: Sun Feb 20 2011, 01:13PM
Location: Vermont, U.S.A.
Posts: 92
Hi again,

Well as mentioned I will not be running this continuously, so I imagine I shouldn't have any issues with there being a lack of oscillations. However, if there are, I have a variety of options that you folks have presented.

Now, I'd like to ask your opinions about one other thought--

Since I just bought a bunch of IGBTs, I'm wondering if I should just start off with the DRSSTC instead of making a basic SSTC and upgrading later. I have a bag of 6kv 1500pF capacitors. I'm estimating a primary coil inductance of around 17uH, so in order to match the 273kHz Fres of the secondary I would need a tank capacitance of about 20nF. I can do that with 14 of them in parallel. My point is that I have all the parts I would need, so perhaps I should just go for it. What do you guys think?

Regards,
Matt
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Dr. Dark Current
Sun Jun 29 2014, 07:04PM
Dr. Dark Current Registered Member #152 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 03:36PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 3384
Are the caps the power type (low dissipation factor)?
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DerStrom8
Sun Jun 29 2014, 07:23PM
DerStrom8 Registered Member #3704 Joined: Sun Feb 20 2011, 01:13PM
Location: Vermont, U.S.A.
Posts: 92
Dr. Dark Current wrote ...

Are the caps the power type (low dissipation factor)?

Actually, I"m not sure. They're high voltage ceramic caps that I bought second-hand at a swap meet. I know there are low-dissipation ceramic capacitors out there, but I see nothing on these that suggest they are the power type.


Infuk6

EDIT: I'm hoping the image isn't too large for the forum. It took me a few tries to upload this one tongue

MODERATOR EDIT: It certainly is, which you would also know if you had read the rules as I asked you to!

RESPONSE TO MOD EDIT: I actually uploaded it before remembering what the size limit was. It should be fixed now tongue

Use:
[img width=600]
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Dr. Dark Current
Sun Jun 29 2014, 09:19PM
Dr. Dark Current Registered Member #152 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 03:36PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 3384
Unfortunately these caps are useless, they have a really huge dissipation factor.

Most coilers use polypropylene film / foil caps. Many manufacturers follow the markings - MKP for metallized film capacitor, MMKP for double metallized film and FKP for metal foil capacitor. FKP caps are most robust and most expensive. There are special kinds of HV RF power polypropylene caps - large cylinders. They are rare and very expensive usually.

Then there are another types of RF power caps which can be used: RF ceramic (values only up to few nF, several kV ratings, extremely low dissipation factor) and RF mica (higher capacitances). Unfortunately these caps are often quite expensive but almost indestructible.
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Sigurthr
Sun Jun 29 2014, 09:33PM
Sigurthr Registered Member #4463 Joined: Wed Apr 18 2012, 08:08AM
Location: MI's Upper Peninsula
Posts: 597
Whoops, sorry folks! I wish I did a 1.1GHz build... I'd be competing with Zilipoper then! I typed 1100KHz and my phone autocorrected it to MHz. I edited the post. I need to stop replying via phone, it takes way too long anyway.

Steve Conner wrote ...

Sigurthr wrote ...

The issue is that when using a secondary base current transformer the input to the schmitt triggers is pulled to ground through the DC resistance of the CT, so there will be NO feedback.
I've always wondered why people don't bother to AC couple the feedback and DC bias the input approximately to the Schmitt trigger threshold. Seems like it would help the coil start up easier as oscillation would be sustained with a smaller signal from the CT.

I've always AC coupled the feedback on all my drivers, but you still have to provide (or allow for) an enable ping or a feedback ping to get the thing going as there is no oscillation (and thus no dV through the coupling cap) at the initialization state. Powering on the gate drive chips causes them to send an enable ping, but your inverter has to be ready to go as soon as you power the feedback and gate drive subsections for this to work. As a result many builds get away with no additional startup circuitry simply by using a certain powering up sequence. Not to mention most builds aren't ideally laid out or shielded, so you get mains noise coupled in to the feedback which provides the startup (feedback) ping even when an ideal power up sequence isn't used. This is usually the oscillation starter for antenna based feedback. When they use a CT for feedback though the impedance of the CT is low enough (as opposed to the input impedance of the shcmitt trigger input which is very high) that no mains noise shows up at the input, and thus no oscillation starts. I find it many coilers never look into these driver behaviors and quirks because so few of us run CW.

As for DC biasing the feedback to target it into the ideal range of the schmitt triggers I'm not sure that it is necessary. I've never had a problem getting secondary base CT feedback sufficient to sustain oscillation even at low power levels with any of my coils. They stay alive right down to 12V DC bus.
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DerStrom8
Sun Jun 29 2014, 09:36PM
DerStrom8 Registered Member #3704 Joined: Sun Feb 20 2011, 01:13PM
Location: Vermont, U.S.A.
Posts: 92
Dr. Dark Current wrote ...

Unfortunately these caps are useless, they have a really huge dissipation factor.

Most coilers use polypropylene film / foil caps. Many manufacturers follow the markings - MKP for metallized film capacitor, MMKP for double metallized film and FKP for metal foil capacitor. FKP caps are most robust and most expensive. There are special kinds of HV RF power polypropylene caps - large cylinders. They are rare and very expensive usually.

Then there are another types of RF power caps which can be used: RF ceramic (values only up to few nF, several kV ratings, extremely low dissipation factor) and RF mica (higher capacitances). Unfortunately these caps are often quite expensive but almost indestructible.

I had a feeling ceramic caps wouldn't work--I'm just not that lucky tongue

I did a quick search on ebay and found some ceramic polypropylene film capacitors (MKP) for pretty darn cheap. I'm not sure how high a voltage the primary will be seeing, but I expect 3kv should be ok? In that case I could put three capacitors in series and two strings in parallel to get 22nF and 3kv. Then again, the 1kv rating is DC....

Here are the caps I'm referring to: Link2
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Sigurthr
Sun Jun 29 2014, 10:28PM
Sigurthr Registered Member #4463 Joined: Wed Apr 18 2012, 08:08AM
Location: MI's Upper Peninsula
Posts: 597
I recommend WIMA or Cornell Dubilier brands for capacitors if you can afford them, they're tried and true tested to be reliable for TC use.

Required MMC voltage rating for DRSSTCs is a complex subject with no simple answer. Most suggest a rule of thumb something near 10x the DC bus voltage.

If you want to dig into the heart of the matter;

Each half cycle the inverter increases the voltage seen by the primary capacitor by 1/2 DC bus for a half bridge or by 1x DC bus for a full bridge*. This effect is lessened by the degree of loading the resonator puts on the inverter, which is determined by the loading of the streamer on the resonator (largely unknown and variable). If you design for a totally unloaded resonator you can determine a worst case scenario voltage expected to be seen across the primary capacitor if you know the number of cycles the inverter will switch per burst, which is determined by the burst length of the interrupter and the resonant frequency of the primary and the over current limiting circuitry (which should be set according to the maximum pulse Ids of the IGBTs).

*I think. I can't find my notes and there was some confusion in the discussion I had with several experienced members about whether the voltage increases by 1/2 or 1 per half cycle for half or full bridge. Logically my mind says it should be as I typed above: 1/2 Vbus per half cycle for half bridge.
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DerStrom8
Sun Jun 29 2014, 10:44PM
DerStrom8 Registered Member #3704 Joined: Sun Feb 20 2011, 01:13PM
Location: Vermont, U.S.A.
Posts: 92
Sigurthr wrote ...

I recommend WIMA or Cornell Dubilier brands for capacitors if you can afford them, they're tried and true tested to be reliable for TC use.

Required MMC voltage rating for DRSSTCs is a complex subject with no simple answer. Most suggest a rule of thumb something near 10x the DC bus voltage.

If you want to dig into the heart of the matter;

Each half cycle the inverter increases the voltage seen by the primary capacitor by 1/2 DC bus for a half bridge or by 1x DC bus for a full bridge*. This effect is lessened by the degree of loading the resonator puts on the inverter, which is determined by the loading of the streamer on the resonator (largely unknown and variable). If you design for a totally unloaded resonator you can determine a worst case scenario voltage expected to be seen across the primary capacitor if you know the number of cycles the inverter will switch per burst, which is determined by the burst length of the interrupter and the resonant frequency of the primary and the over current limiting circuitry (which should be set according to the maximum pulse Ids of the IGBTs).

*I think. I can't find my notes and there was some confusion in the discussion I had with several experienced members about whether the voltage increases by 1/2 or 1 per half cycle for half or full bridge. Logically my mind says it should be as I typed above: 1/2 Vbus per half cycle for half bridge.

I'm afraid my budget is quite limited for this project--I'm trying to keep it below $50 for several reasons--so unfortunately I really can't get any expensive capacitors. For the time being I'm going to have to go with the bare minimum to get it to work. Judging by your figure of 10x the buss voltage, 3kV should be fine for my coil, considering I only plan on putting in 50-120v. Though, with the capacitors I linked to I would have enough to increase the voltage tolerance more than 3kv, so I guess if the material is acceptable they will work?

You guys have definitely given me a much better understanding of these coils. I came in a few days ago with practically no understanding whatsoever, so I am very grateful! Hopefully this is the first coil of many wink

Cheers,
Matt
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