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Dr. Slack

Mon Jun 16 2014, 08:39PM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

Do you infringe any patents?

Do a search for patents. USgov, espacenet, freepatentsonline are all good sources, the first two are official ones.

Find a random patent that is in the field of your idea. Find the 'international classicification' on that patent, it will be something like H03 (IIRC that's something electronic). Then find the index of international classifications, and using the example you've found as a calibration on the jargon, drill down through the classification index to find what index covers your field. Then search on this classification code. As a pointer

That will probably throw up several that appear to cover your idea. Now read claim 1 of the patents. You only infringe a patent if you infringe the claims, the description is irrelevant (for infringement it's irrelevant, it's relevant if you are trying to patent your own thing and trying to establish that your idea hasn't been published before). Claim 1 is the biggy, you can pretty much forget about the others (for infringement!). I can give you a hand at this stage if you like, once you've found some dodgy claims.

If a claim 1 does cover your idea, all is not lost. The patent may be invalid, that is, it may claim an idea that has already been published. That's *any* publication, and in most jurisdictions 'publication' includes selling a device incorporating the idea. I find that old text books are a great source of 'prior art' publication, oh the predatory patents I've defeated with a photocopy from a dusty 1970's electronics book! Don't forget you don't have to go to court to prove the patent is invalid. You just have to have it up your sleeve so that if the patent owner writes to you demanding money with menaces, you can just point out that the patent would be found invalid if it went to court.

Patrick

Mon Jun 16 2014, 08:55PM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

Patrick wrote ...

Josh Campbell wrote ...

Patrick, just to clarify, your main concern is not patenting your own device but whether or not the specific device you are making is patented correct? Thereby putting you at risk for litigation should you try to market said device in a product.

yes, exactly.

yes, and if so, to invalidate their patents.
(i should have said earlier, but was still sleep deprived in thought.)

Dr. Slack wrote ...

Don't forget you don't have to go to court to prove the patent is invalid. You just have to have it up your sleeve so that if the patent owner writes to you demanding money with menaces, you can just point out that the patent would be found invalid if it went to court.

this was my master plan, i was hoping you were'nt all going to say i was crazy.

sort of:

irobot:

Neato:

(this is the robot that uses my XV-11)

theses guys:

are repackaging the XV-11 lidar for 500US$! for a lidar thatt cost supposedly 30$ to make.

Dr. Slack

Mon Jun 16 2014, 10:24PM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

sort of:
irobot:
Neato: (this is the robot that uses my XV-11)

Makes your head spin, doesn't it. A particulates receptacle (er, a dustbin), an arm with a distal and proximal end (an arm has two ends, one's far and the other's near).

The floor cleaning robot claim is very narrow. Like it only covers floor cleaning robots. You get this with patents. As time goes on, the claims have to get narrower and narrower, so as to avoid trying to claim prior art, which means the claims become less dangerous. With the one I mentioned, anything that isn't a floor cleaning robot will not infringe.

What you really want to find, slam dunk if you will, is an expired patent, so >21 years old, that covers your product, or at least the essential or novel features.

but the real question here is whether the simple components and trig can be summed up to a patentable device right? As an example, I was under the impression that industry common practices and devices couldnt be patented, and taking a blender and chain saw, gluing the together and painting it pink wouldnt make for a patentable device.

It does get complicated. painting a chainsaw pink won't get you a valid patent. But taking a chainsaw into a *different field of application*, say using it as a torture device might well, except for the prior art of the movie Scarface.

Whether combining a lidar with a chainsaw works is tough. It has to be outisde the 'normal skill of one skilled in the art'. The toughy is that it's the art *at the date of filing*. It can be very hard to work out when, say, negative feedback stopped being novel and became obvious. Well actually, that one's easy, the Harry Black patent, but you get my drift.

Now with your lidars, I think the field of application is sensing the position of a robot, not whether that robot is a warehouse truck or a floor cleaner. But that's only my opinion, I'm neither attorney nor judge. But adding a mirror, or changing the axis of a mirror, will probably be enough. But, read claim 1 carefully to see exactly what they're claiming, because often what you want to do *is* the prior art, and the patent is no problem.

Each patent will start with a list of documents that were cited as potentially relevant prior art when it was filed. Look at these. If your method is completely described by one of these, then you only have to worry about this older patent. It may be owned by a non-predatory company, it may be expired, or if neither of those, rinse and repeat, and see what came before that.

Patrick

Mon Jun 16 2014, 11:04PM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

ok let me see.

when i contacted them 18 months ago, i spoke with a desk jockey, who said he couldnt sell the lidar by itself, even as a replacement part. He said they come off the boat from china fully made and are sold in increments of 10 as a minimum.

they also made statements that they (or the company that makes the lidar) would make the lidar available to consumes by itself (with the obvious intent for robtics use by garage tinkers' ) but that never happened.

so ill contact them again. with the promise i wont invade their market, they may be non-hostile.

Carbon_Rod

Mon Jun 16 2014, 11:39PM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

@Dr. Slack
Warning: Most places are now first-to-register, and not first-to-invent.
Even with prior-art, patent challenges cost over $1500 to file in the US alone.

@Patrick
Most create a holding company that draws the profits from a corporation doing sales with it's licensed IP. There are several other tips a corporate lawyer can offer you as well. Note, legal insurance for your family is also quite inexpensive.

â€œit's better to ask forgiveness than permissionâ€
If they do not pursue you legally, than they will have a difficult time claiming damages with the lack of enforcement.

Patrick

Tue Jun 17 2014, 12:05AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

I'm pondering all that Has been said in this thread. The legal matters are far more difficult than technical ones, I suspect this is common.

Dr. Slack

Tue Jun 17 2014, 12:58PM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

Tesla's patents thrown open

That's Musk and the car, not Nicola and the Tower

Carbon_Rod

Tue Jun 17 2014, 02:20PM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

@Dr. Slack
Although a commendable attempt to help bring about a standard infrastructure, it is unlikely to hold true in the future. The legal precedent set by not licensing the IP (even for $1) may open his company to the liability of losing control over the product if patent challenge proceedings are made. Recall how Phillips lost the PCB patent...

Patrick

Tue Jun 17 2014, 02:53PM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

Carbon_Rod wrote ...

@Dr. Slack
Although a commendable attempt to help bring about a standard infrastructure, it is unlikely to hold true in the future. The legal precedent set by not licensing the IP (even for $1) may open his company to the liability of losing control over the product if patent challenge proceedings are made. Recall how Phillips lost the PCB patent...

who is "his" ?

Carbon_Rod

Tue Jun 17 2014, 06:14PM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

@Patrick
We were alluding to CEO Elon Musk releasing IP related to EV chargers.
It is very uncommon for a company to give away a competitive advantage.

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