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Should we allow guns in our schools?

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Chip Fixes

Tue Dec 18 2012, 05:51PM

Registered Member #3781 Joined: Sat Mar 26 2011, 02:25AM
Location:
Posts: 701

My mother is a principal at a school and we were talking about arming teachers the other day. She was against it, she said that even if she had a gun with her and had time to get it out and everything; she wouldn't be able to pull the trigger. She's not willing to kill someone, even if her life as well as the life of others are dependent on it.

Personally, I think we need to pump more money into redesigning the mental healthcare system.

Ash Small

Tue Dec 18 2012, 06:46PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Camp Badger wrote ...

Personally, I think we need to pump more money into redesigning the mental healthcare system.

I don't think that would make any difference. These people don't generally have a history of mental illness. The recent mass shooting at Whitehaven in Cumbria, England is one example of this. The gunman had a shotgun license, which you can't obtain if there is any sign of mental health problems. The gunman in the Newtown shooting, while he kept himself to himself, didn't exhibit any mental health problems that I'm aware of (you can't lock up every introvert in an asylum).

The gunman who carried out the mass shooting in Norway was found to be 'sane' after the shooting (according to Wikipedia).

One of the Columbine gunmen was recieving treatment for depression at the time of the massacre. This made no difference. The other was 'depressive' (as are a lot of people).

I could go on.....

EDIT: Apparently, Adam Lanza had "Asberger's syndrome and was 'into technology'" (something he shares with a number of members of this forum).

Also, "people with mental health problems are no more likely to commit violent crimes than anyone else, but are much more likely to become victims"

Link to Channel 4 news item here:

Chip Fixes

Tue Dec 18 2012, 08:03PM

Registered Member #3781 Joined: Sat Mar 26 2011, 02:25AM
Location:
Posts: 701

Ah, I didn't know that. You might find this article interesting after what you said about gunmen picking out soft targets:

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Tue Dec 18 2012, 08:09PM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

I was always picked on in HS, so you could have thrown me into the "nutty" group I guess, but the trouble is I do fairly well, I'm a professional Engineer, I support my family with my wages, and I turned out alright.

The Issue i had with schools was that the "infrastructure", due to their policies, does nothing about bullies, so we have to have kids programming suppliment the vast incompetence of the school system with their "prevent bullying" campaings. Sad.

Bullying has since worsened, and any HS these days has got to be more like a prison system, than a school, I'm glad I graduated long ago.

Getting to the point, Ash, I kinda have a problem with differing all critical thought to let "the experts" decide what is what.

Just because an expert physician determined through application of a test, that someone is sane, and has gone out and killed a bunch of people, doesn't seem like they were tested properly to me, or at the very least, is a poor test. Wouldn't you think?

So agreeing with "an expert" in this case, is to throw away critical thought, I'm not really for that.

I don't agree that the FED should be printing more money, just because they're the experts, it dilutes the dollar,
I don't agree with the government spending the way it does, just because they're the experts, it raises our taxes to the point of suffocation,

Are you in favor of Merkel running the EU because she's an expert? probably not.

Something is clearly lacking here, probably in the method of examination, because these folks are slipping through the cracks of an "expert's test"

I would also go on to say that there are other issues we have to look at. As a society we as a whole agree to live with each other by the rules we agree upon. When the rules become common, they generally get ratified into Law.

When someone decides not to follow the rules, or the "norm", we have differences of opinion, and sometimes a conflict.

Being a nudist here in the states is not the norm because society agrees that we wear clothes. fine.
Being a nudist and teaching it to your kids introduces a conflict, now we have an issue.

Being a gun owner here in the states is not necessairly the norm, but it is agreed that if you follow the laws, you can own a weapon.
Going around killing people is not the "norm" and now we have a conflict.

So in general it is important to first identify what society agrees upon to set the standard, figure out the norm, and identify if there is a conflict.

The kids being killed is definately a conflict, and if doctors cannot identify this kind of issue through some "test", then I would submit that we should turn our critical thinking skills back on. (despite my spelling errors, I am a terrible speller)

Ash Small

Tue Dec 18 2012, 09:32PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Thanks for the link, CB.

Hazmatt, I think we're basically saying similar things. If the 'expert tests' don't identify these individuals, they are a waste of time and money, etc.

Even worse, if they identify people who are not going to become 'mass murderers' as 'potential mass murderers, and 'take people off the streets' when they are, in fact, 'not a threat', that's terrible, locking up innocent people who aren't even a threat.

The current mood in America, that more resources need to be put into mental health' will be a boost for 'Obamacare', and is probably being pushed by Obama's supporters (this is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned), but to expect this to 'solve this problem' sounds pretty ridiculous to me, for the reasons given above.

tobias

Thu Dec 20 2012, 01:55AM

Registered Member #1956 Joined: Wed Feb 04 2009, 01:22PM
Location: Jersey City
Posts: 172

Good reading:

2Spoons

Thu Dec 20 2012, 03:19AM

Registered Member #2939 Joined: Fri Jun 25 2010, 04:25AM
Location:
Posts: 615

I'm a parent of a gifted kid. She suffers from social anxiety issues that have resulted in her being home schooled. I can tell you that identifying kids with issues is not the problem - its getting any kind of help. I'm lucky my daughter is not aggressive or violent, though she has decided to suicide at 18 (she is 15 currently). We continue to seek help from the medical profession.

As for the gun issue, it seems insane to me that civilians are allowed to own assault rifles, with high cap mags. I live in New Zealand where guns are very tightly controlled. A license is required to own anything other than an airgun, mags on semi's are limited to 7 rounds, pistols require a special license and membership of a shooting club to justify ownership. No automatics at all, not even paintball. No assault rifles at all, except for licensed collectors, and the guns must be disabled.
We have very few gun deaths here in NZ - most are hunting accidents. We do still get the occasional nutbar letting loose - they are almost unavoidable, but they are generally taken down before many people get hurt.

Nik

Thu Dec 20 2012, 03:49AM

Registered Member #53 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:31AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 638

I agree that there needs to be a system for getting help to kids that need it. There was nothing when I was in high school almost a decade ago and its the same now. However gun control is not an issue. People who shoot other people for reasons out side of law enforcement or war are not concerned with laws. If you made fire arms illegal there would still be people shooting other people because they don't care about gun laws. If there were no guns in that kids house he would have gone into the school with knives or home made bombs or DIY mustard gas. Banning the weapon doesn't stop the crime it just changes the vector of attack.

I don't own any fire arms and I'm not likely to in the future, I'm not defending my own hobby.

Ben Solon

Thu Dec 20 2012, 03:17PM

Registered Member #3900 Joined: Thu May 19 2011, 08:28PM
Location:
Posts: 600

I live in Massachusetts and go to a high school where the doors are open all day long, and anyone can come or go. The main office in most cases probably wouldn't even see you come or go either. We have lock-down and containment drills every so often just like fire drills, but after the event in Connecticut the administration had a moment of silence, but no changes to security. Even after parents began sending letters to the school about this, all they do is try to shake them off. I don't think that the schools are going to change for the most part, any farther and they actually would look like prisons. I believe that if any changes occur, they'll be in having people diagnosed with whatever it is that causes them to do these horrible things. One of the big problems is that these events usually end with a bullet to the head, destroying any chance of study.

Just my two cents...

Pinky's Brain

Sat Dec 22 2012, 02:25PM

Registered Member #2901 Joined: Thu Jun 03 2010, 01:25PM
Location:
Posts: 837

I question the honesty of the NRA ... I understand their stance on gun, but throwing billions of dollars at private security thugs in a time when there are huge cuts in education is just insanity. Do they really want a society where kids are conditioned to be used to have armed uniformed thugs looking over their shoulders every single moment?

I'm of the opinion you can't take the guns out of US society at this point and saturation and training is probably the best defence for the US ... why not just just provide free training, guns and concealed carry licenses (including school property) to any teacher who wants them with mandatory shooting range sessions every so often?

To me their scheme just seems more proof that real conservatives pretty much don't exist any more as an organized force in the US ... and it's not the "in name only's" which are the root cause, but financial interests. I wonder how much money comes the NRA's way from private security firms ...

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