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Should we allow guns in our schools?

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Ash Small

Tue Dec 18 2012, 02:04AM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Should we arm teachers, should we have armed guards in our schools? Should we, in Europe, allow citizens to bear arms? If individuals in Norway had guns would the gunman there in 2011 have been shot before he killed 77 people (mostly kids)?

Whatever happened to the 'English Bill Of Rights' of 1689?

(Mods close this thread if you want to, I'll understand)

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Tue Dec 18 2012, 03:13AM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

What happened to civility... it went out the door.

Arming everyone isn't really the solution. The solution is using the signs that someone is obviously in some state of distress and is about to do something wrong. But you have to take all the "Lefties" out of the equation that want to "hug" the gunmen and make their feelings okay, and get these people under observation and the goddam HELP that they need.

We need new and more mental institutions now! The crazies are all out roaming around without a proper place to be, the end result is what you have now.

Patrick

Tue Dec 18 2012, 03:51AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

in American schools there must be :

First, a single full time uniformed officer at every high school, 1 per 1000 students, armed.
Second, 10 uniformed- armed officers (for every 1000 students) sent part time to familiarize with staff and students.
third, no rent-a-cops under any circumstances are to be armed. (politicians try to cut corners)
fourth, a rapid reaction force (at least some of the officers from my second point) ready to act without waiting for clearing or lockdown to complete.

things i would not do in American schools:

i would not arm teachers or rent-a-cops.
i would not build or operate schools like prisons, this idea is at least absurd, if not outrageous. (controlling those who come and go is acceptable.)

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

But you have to take all the "Lefties" out of the equation that want to "hug" the gunmen and make their feelings okay, and get these people under observation and the goddam HELP that they need.

We need new and more mental institutions now! The crazies are all out roaming around without a proper place to be, the end result is what you have now.

As a californian who tries to avoid politics, i must second this comment. there are leftist who said in the 70's and 80's, "hey you cant confine the homeless or make crazy people take there meds, they have rights! " so the leftists show thier compassion for humanity by turning these people out onto the streets, with no support at all.

Nik

Tue Dec 18 2012, 04:20AM

Registered Member #53 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:31AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 638

The easiest way to stop this school shooting cr@p is to pick out the kids with warning signs early. Think back to high school, you knew who that one "weird" kid was, the quiet angry kid, the staff all notice that stuff too but they are not trained to help that kid. It could take as little a a few sessions with a real mental health professional to help that one kid though his social/family/self problems and set them back on track. There should be some intervention with help for the clearly messed up kids.

Anecdotally, there were two such kids in my high school class. They were aggressively anti-social and were very quick to threaten physical violence to resolve any situation. Luckily in my 4 years they never took it any farther then a few brief fights but they are exactly the same now as they were 7 years ago. I've seen them at pubs and around town still with the same world hating mentality. Had the staff been trained to deal with and modify that kind of behaviour maybe they wouldn't be like that today.

Dr. Slack

Tue Dec 18 2012, 08:15AM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

Should we arm Europeans in the hope of stopping the occasional mass child-killing atrocity? Should we disarm the US in the hope of stopping the occasional mass child-killing atrocity?

No to both. I think I've just demonstrated that the right to bear arms, or not, is more or less irrelevant.

Just man up with your expectations of life and society. Life will end. For some unexpectedly early. Shit happens. We (as a planet) kill thousands on the roads every year, and accept that as a price for universal mobility without too many restrictions. Having hundreds die at the hands of some random nutter from time to time is not too bad in comparison. The benefit we buy with that price is the ability to chill about the state leaving most people unmolested in their day to day life.

Note that we have to do that, it's not possible to clamp down on everybody to prevent atrocities. It's just that we can chill about it. Easily stopping the school shooting cr@p by picking up the warning signs early, in everybody, and doing something effective, is perhaps using the word 'easily' with a new meaning that I'm not familiar with.

Daedronus

Tue Dec 18 2012, 09:27AM

Registered Member #2329 Joined: Tue Sept 01 2009, 08:25AM
Location:
Posts: 370

I definitely don't want every idiot being able to buy a gun, here, in Europe.
And no, I don't think arming normal people will help stop a determined individual.
Normal people are just not used to react, think, that fast.

There was a experiment on YouTube, about giving a normal people a (fake) gun in a supposedly normal class about guns, then they got another people in there that started shooting (also fake, paint gun).
The idea was to see if the first person unaware of what is happening could react in time and the answer was no, he wasn't even able to to take the gun out of the holster in time, and he had plenty of time.

Carbon_Rod

Tue Dec 18 2012, 11:06AM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

In general, antipersonnel weapons are a symptom of a fundamental social problem.

The idea that violence can solve real challenges in everyday life is a well nurtured fantasy. Pop culture embraces the illogical assertion that punishing violent aberrations of society's insane will make people safer. I've observed people going mad, and it is usually a slow process in which they will fixate on some delusion in an attempt to rationalize erratic thinking. These individuals often undergo a periodic episode where fantasy and reality are indistinguishable, but cognitive faculty often remains unaffected. Ultimately, they usually take their own lives in a moment of lucidity to escape their own torment.

In grief, people will attempt to rationalize this madman's actions, but it will only defer the process of accepting there is nothing anyone could have done.

The reality of those teachers putting down their lives to try and protect those little kids... reminds us all that despite our own challenges in life we share an unspoken responsibility for each others families.

The stages of grief are documented here for those feeling upset:

Mads Barnkob

Tue Dec 18 2012, 12:01PM

Registered Member #1403 Joined: Tue Mar 18 2008, 06:05PM
Location: Denmark, Odense C
Posts: 1968

Unless I see improvement in the arguments brought into this discussion, it is going to be locked.

nixie

Tue Dec 18 2012, 02:04PM

Registered Member #3908 Joined: Tue May 24 2011, 09:40PM
Location: Gilbert, Arizona USA
Posts: 68

I'm a dad to children the same age as those murdered.
I was physically sickened. And reminded to love them as though each day could be our last.
My heart goes out to the parents.

Ash Small

Tue Dec 18 2012, 05:37PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

The last two mass shootings in America, the cinema shooting, and the lates school shooting did have one thing in common. (along with several other mass shootings).

In the case of the cinema shooting at the Batman premier, the gunman targeted the only cinema in the area that had a 'no guns' policy. It was one of several where the film was being premiered (according to BBC news), it wasn't the nearest, or the largest. He drove quite a way to the only cinema where he knew no-one else would be armed.

Schools are also 'no gun' zones.

These 'psycho's', it would appear, specifically choose these 'targets' as they know they will not meet any resistance. Almost all other places in the US either have armed guards of one sort or another, or are, at least, places where guns are not prohibited.

The recent mass shooting in Norway occurred in similar circumstances. The gunman could be pretty certain that he would not meet any resistance on the island where kids were attending a summer camp.

They don't target places where they 'might' meet armed resistance.

I'm of the opinion that if the gunmen suspected they 'might' meet armed resistance they would 'think again'.

They choose these 'soft targets' on purpose. I suggest that, while these 'soft target, gun free-zones' exist, there is nothing that we, as a society, can do about it. (Banning guns doesn't really help. Anyone with access to a small workshop can make their own weapons and ammunition if they are determined. My own lathe was originally built for munitions manufacture. (Made by Pfeil, of London))

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