Welcome
Username or Email:

Password:


Missing Code




[ ]
[ ]
Online
  • Guests: 81
  • Members: 0
  • Newest Member: omjtest
  • Most ever online: 396
    Guests: 396, Members: 0 on 12 Jan : 12:51
Members Birthdays:
All today's birthdays', congrats!
dan (37)
rchydro (64)
CapRack (30)


Next birthdays
11/06 dan (37)
11/06 rchydro (64)
11/06 CapRack (30)
Contact
If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.


Special Thanks To:
  • Aaron Holmes
  • Aaron Wheeler
  • Adam Horden
  • Alan Scrimgeour
  • Andre
  • Andrew Haynes
  • Anonymous000
  • asabase
  • Austin Weil
  • barney
  • Barry
  • Bert Hickman
  • Bill Kukowski
  • Blitzorn
  • Brandon Paradelas
  • Bruce Bowling
  • BubeeMike
  • Byong Park
  • Cesiumsponge
  • Chris F.
  • Chris Hooper
  • Corey Worthington
  • Derek Woodroffe
  • Dalus
  • Dan Strother
  • Daniel Davis
  • Daniel Uhrenholt
  • datasheetarchive
  • Dave Billington
  • Dave Marshall
  • David F.
  • Dennis Rogers
  • drelectrix
  • Dr. John Gudenas
  • Dr. Spark
  • E.TexasTesla
  • eastvoltresearch
  • Eirik Taylor
  • Erik Dyakov
  • Erlend^SE
  • Finn Hammer
  • Firebug24k
  • GalliumMan
  • Gary Peterson
  • George Slade
  • GhostNull
  • Gordon Mcknight
  • Graham Armitage
  • Grant
  • GreySoul
  • Henry H
  • IamSmooth
  • In memory of Leo Powning
  • Jacob Cash
  • James Howells
  • James Pawson
  • Jeff Greenfield
  • Jeff Thomas
  • Jesse Frost
  • Jim Mitchell
  • jlr134
  • Joe Mastroianni
  • John Forcina
  • John Oberg
  • John Willcutt
  • Jon Newcomb
  • klugesmith
  • Leslie Wright
  • Lutz Hoffman
  • Mads Barnkob
  • Martin King
  • Mats Karlsson
  • Matt Gibson
  • Matthew Guidry
  • mbd
  • Michael D'Angelo
  • Mikkel
  • mileswaldron
  • mister_rf
  • Neil Foster
  • Nick de Smith
  • Nick Soroka
  • nicklenorp
  • Nik
  • Norman Stanley
  • Patrick Coleman
  • Paul Brodie
  • Paul Jordan
  • Paul Montgomery
  • Ped
  • Peter Krogen
  • Peter Terren
  • PhilGood
  • Richard Feldman
  • Robert Bush
  • Royce Bailey
  • Scott Fusare
  • Scott Newman
  • smiffy
  • Stella
  • Steven Busic
  • Steve Conner
  • Steve Jones
  • Steve Ward
  • Sulaiman
  • Thomas Coyle
  • Thomas A. Wallace
  • Thomas W
  • Timo
  • Torch
  • Ulf Jonsson
  • vasil
  • Vaxian
  • vladi mazzilli
  • wastehl
  • Weston
  • William Kim
  • William N.
  • William Stehl
  • Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: General Science and Electronics
« Previous topic | Next topic »   

A new approach on solar energy !

Move Thread LAN_403
Ash Small
Sun Dec 02 2012, 10:01AM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Shrad wrote ...

it also takes the huge benefit of oil thermal inertia

the energy needed to launch the system is quite important, but once it is running, the energy needed to sustain the reaction is quite low actually

as hot water in oil will be pressured in micro-bubbles, get calories needed to evaporate but be kept under pressure, the vapor will be generated all at once when it reaches the combustion chamber which has greater volume, no?

it has not the same drawbacks as standard vapor turbines with super saturated vapor, water droplets, entropy etc... without mentioning the maintenance required by a turbine

I agree.
Back to top
BigBad
Sun Dec 02 2012, 06:19PM
BigBad Registered Member #2529 Joined: Thu Dec 10 2009, 02:43AM
Location:
Posts: 600
1kW goes quite a long way, an average house only needs about 2 kW/person or so.

The main problem with this kind of system is the noise, do you really want a motor running continuously right outside your house?
Back to top
BigBad
Sun Dec 02 2012, 06:22PM
BigBad Registered Member #2529 Joined: Thu Dec 10 2009, 02:43AM
Location:
Posts: 600
Patrick wrote ...

Fourth, i about 10 years ago investigated concentrating heat from pipes in the ground, since the ground is a constant heat source the deeper you go and doesnt rise and fall on the horizon. energy isnt a problem, but concentrating high volume to small value while increasing temp (not volating E conservation) is...
That's called a "ground source heat pump", and it's fairly well known tech, you can buy them off the shelf.

You can power them from electricity, and they're much more efficient than normal space heaters. Also, there's "air source heat pumps" that suck the heat out the air, which work down to about 7C.
Back to top
Yanom
Wed Dec 05 2012, 04:27AM
Yanom Registered Member #4659 Joined: Sun Apr 29 2012, 06:14PM
Location:
Posts: 158
2bytes wrote ...

But as a MO S&T alumni I wish them the best of luck! I think testing beforehand to show energy output would have helped.

somewhat related - what's it like at s&t? I'm thinking about going there to study physics (undergrad)
Back to top
Patrick
Wed Dec 05 2012, 07:42AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
BigBad wrote ...

Patrick wrote ...

Fourth, i about 10 years ago investigated concentrating heat from pipes in the ground, since the ground is a constant heat source the deeper you go and doesnt rise and fall on the horizon. energy isnt a problem, but concentrating high volume to small value while increasing temp (not volating E conservation) is...
That's called a "ground source heat pump", and it's fairly well known tech, you can buy them off the shelf.

You can power them from electricity, and they're much more efficient than normal space heaters. Also, there's "air source heat pumps" that suck the heat out the air, which work down to about 7C.
yes! but they havent caught on, just some small time water heater replacement things every-now-and-then, i see advertised for northern california...
Back to top
BigBad
Wed Dec 05 2012, 04:43PM
BigBad Registered Member #2529 Joined: Thu Dec 10 2009, 02:43AM
Location:
Posts: 600
They're catching on, wiki says that they're growing at about 10% per year which isn't bad.
Back to top
Dr. Slack
Wed Dec 05 2012, 05:49PM
Dr. Slack Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659
The "re-inventing the steam engine" post hit the nail on the head.

If they are planning to get the oil to 700F, then that's plenty high enough for efficient use of a steam turbine. They are only using a small IC engine as that's what they had to hand, and their machining facilities probably don't run to turbines. I think a major design issue they have is going to be the operating temperature of that high thermal conductivity cylinder head. If cool, it will sap the thermal energy content of the oil and wreck the efficiency. If hot, it will be injecting steam rather than water. I suspect that a much lower thermal conductivity and thermal capacity head will fit better with their "oil boils water" heat transfer mode.

But then why have all that fiddly internal combustion/boiling mylarky, when external engines like Stirling, steam turbine or old skool reciprocating steam engine would probably be simpler to optimise?

By the way, don't use low grade heat "concentrated" by a heat pump to power a thermal (Carnot) engine. You've just connected the up side and the down side of a thermodynamic not-perpetual motion machine.
Back to top
Jrz126
Wed Dec 05 2012, 06:25PM
Jrz126 Registered Member #242 Joined: Thu Feb 23 2006, 11:37PM
Location: Erie PA
Posts: 210
I wonder if the flammability of oil will be a problem.
Back to top
Ash Small
Wed Dec 05 2012, 06:33PM
Ash Small Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Jrz126 wrote ...

I wonder if the flammability of oil will be a problem.

No, because the temperature is only 700F (~370C).

Dr. Slack wrote ...

The "re-inventing the steam engine" post hit the nail on the head.

If they are planning to get the oil to 700F, then that's plenty high enough for efficient use of a steam turbine. They are only using a small IC engine as that's what they had to hand, and their machining facilities probably don't run to turbines. I think a major design issue they have is going to be the operating temperature of that high thermal conductivity cylinder head. If cool, it will sap the thermal energy content of the oil and wreck the efficiency. If hot, it will be injecting steam rather than water. I suspect that a much lower thermal conductivity and thermal capacity head will fit better with their "oil boils water" heat transfer mode.

But then why have all that fiddly internal combustion/boiling mylarky, when external engines like Stirling, steam turbine or old skool reciprocating steam engine would probably be simpler to optimise?

By the way, don't use low grade heat "concentrated" by a heat pump to power a thermal (Carnot) engine. You've just connected the up side and the down side of a thermodynamic not-perpetual motion machine.

Actually, direct injection of water into the combustion chamber to improve efficiency (partly due to the extra pressure when it turns to steam) has been around for some time. I assume it's where they obtained their inspiration for this project: Link2

EDIT: this link doesn't work due to the brackets. It is supposed to link to: wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

(If you use the 'quote' function, you can copy and paste the link directly into your browser)
Back to top

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob

Go to:

Powered by e107 Forum System
 
Legal Information
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.