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Is anyone else concerend about the F22 ?

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Patrick

Sat Sept 22 2012, 05:48AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

Okay wait a minute, I just want to say that:

1. Originally the F-22 was a Northrop Grumman product

Your thinking of the YF-23, which actually had better specs that the YF-22. (no one knows why Northrop chose not to excerise theyre right to challenge the fly-off compitition findings.)

YF-22 = Lockheed, Boeing, General Dynamics
YF-23 = Northrop and McDonell Douglas

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

2. The contract gets split once the Air Force agrees to a quantity to be built
Northrop does the center body
Boeing I think does the wings, or control surfaces, I forget the exacts
Lockheed does a lot of the main integration, then takes all the credit on the commercials.

yeah the table scraps go to the loser, Northrop, as a concelation prize.

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

3. The order, or "bulk" of the planes is supplanted by F-18's anyway, which are mostly Northrop

what does this mean?

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

4. If you don't work for one of these companies, why are you worried?
5. I'm not worried because I work on the ... well... *cough cough* Dark Side of the Moon, so to speak... a different division.

Well its our money, were running out - (16T$), and pilots are being killed... I think those two points make it every Americans business...

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

6. Adding 6 because ..well... when there is an Ooops on the line, it costs a lot of money to have QA sign off and fix, that's where a lot of cost can go.
nothing is perfect off the line, but it's all documented and does cost.

I realize things get screwed up, I am a machinist, metal fabricator, and soon to be EE, and my father was a QA person for a divison of Xerox 25+ years. ive seen, since the age of 6 (now 31) management idiots screw over engineers, fabricators, and QA people every dam time... But in national defense people get killed, like Benghazi, we owe it to those in danger to get things right...

When your being paid more money than god, i think you had better build the plane right the first time, or fix it in a dam hurry. And LM still gets to build the Joint Strike Fighter --- sigh --- another 260 Billion

Sulaiman

Sat Sept 22 2012, 06:12AM

Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140

Despite the excessively large military power of the USA,
Americans are not free to roam the earth in peace and safety.
I remember meeting many Americans on my hitch-hiking treks around Europe & North Africa during the '70s, how many young Americans have that freedom now?

Imagine the effect if just half of the USA military industrial complex effort
went to generating wealth for all of it's citizens and helping other nations
- what an opportunity lost :(

Dump the F22 .. start making stuff that is good for humanity....please.
Don't expect politicians to change - choose a career based on your own conscience.

( I was traveling North Africa with my wife a few years ago, before the 'Arab Spring'
when people asked where I am from, England got a lukewarm response,
my wife got a warm welcome when she said Malaysia
so I guess we here in UK aren't doing a good job either! )

So my answer to this topic thread is ... YES, I'm concerned about the F22.

Patrick

Sat Sept 22 2012, 07:15AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

Careful there Sulaiman, you europeans (EU and or the UN) dont have a good track record on matters of peace, war and serving humanity.

what bothers me, is pilots who get killed uneccissarily, a window and his children. but i meant this thread to be a technical and operations related disscussion on the F22, not our foriegn policy.

we scientists and engineers have a responsibility to not get innocent people injured or killed, even if we dont have a hiporatic oath per se, we still as professionals cant let idiot managers and politicians force us to do the wrong thing, get someone killed, and walk away as if theres no wrong doing having been done.

I dont want to get this thread locked, becuase i think it has technical relivance for the younger members here on 4HV.

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Sat Sept 22 2012, 02:53PM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

Patrick,

The government knows the cost of these planes very well, so they are not going to build as many F-22's as they expected to in the first place, that's where the F-35 comes in, which in my opinion, is a mess too, but from what I recall, and I'm not going to bother with looking up the cost because it's not worth my time, is a cheaper aircraft, along with the F-18.

If you want to be upset or mad about the way government operates, change it with your vote, I certainly am going to do this come november.
(Democrats hate defense spending because it helps the Military, so you can vote Democrat. Republicans hate the spending, and will cut spending, so you can vote Republican, either way, you win.)

Biggest point of all, this is the way they do business, bid a contract, screw it up, then request more money. That's the way it's always been. I'm not a big fan of that, and I don't condone the practice in any way, but that's the way it goes. But there is hope, everything is moving toward fixed cost contracting, so overruns are at the expense of the company, which they should be anyway.

Lockheed does twice as much business as Northrop, and Northrop does twice as much as Boeing, I have seen those numbers, so the scraps will generally go to us smaller guys, that's just the way it is. If you don't like that either, then you could in some fashion, start you own political lobby against Lockheed, and that would gain you a voice in the political theater for whatever bargaining you want, but you'll probably need $100 Million dollars to do that, which is selling a lot of "World's Finest Chocolate Bars."

Patrick,

Some of us in Defense work very hard to minimise spending, reduce budgets, and work with less. I do that every day, and it is not easy because when you want heat shrink tube, the paperwork to PLACE the order costs $3000. Why? Well, you have to go through all the channels to request the order, place the order, get it shipped, pay the receiving dock guys, pay the inspection people to make sure it's an acceptable material, then pay the people to deliver it to your office before you can even get your hands on it. So I usually sneak it in at $3.00 a stick.

Some of us really try, but if you've never worked in the industry, it is going to be hard for you to understand where the money goes. Buildings are burning electricity 24 hours a day, computers are on all the time, Hell, just to power the building lights and computers you're looking at 1MVA.

Buy yourself a copy of "Pentagon Wars", have a beer, and relax. Because if you're going to get upset at the F-22, should we even mention the Ospry?! Probably not.

Just to add one more thing, 35% of my pay ($76K) goes back to the government as payroll taxes, so I am partly helping to fund projects as well, that is if you believe in the circular nature of economics.

Patrick

Sat Sept 22 2012, 05:07PM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

I have voted in every election ive ever legally been allowed to vote in (starting at 18 !)... and i will be voting in this next one.

Everything else youve said makes me want to drink, puke or both. As i said, there are young ones who need to read this thread.

HV Enthusiast

Sat Sept 22 2012, 05:17PM

Registered Member #15 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 01:11PM
Location:
Posts: 3068

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

Just to add one more thing, 35% of my pay ($76K) goes back to the government as payroll taxes, so I am partly helping to fund projects as well, that is if you believe in the circular nature of economics.

Sorry Hazmatt . . .

Those taxes you pay FUND NO PROJECTS WHATSOEVER!!!!!

The taxes you pay the federal government are only used to pay the interest on our the national debt!

Ash Small

Sat Sept 22 2012, 08:54PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

So I usually sneak it in at $3.00 a stick.

What!!....no traceability??

Patrick

Sat Sept 22 2012, 10:16PM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

Solyndra threw away 2 million $ in special glass, LOL thats where our money went. from the federal reserve too the dumpster, now we get to pay interest on whats in that dumpster, to the chinese or devalue existing money.

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Sat Sept 22 2012, 11:58PM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

Ash,

It is for non-critical harnesses that are test cables, not the flight stuff, so there is no concern. It's called "Ground Equipment", and it can't make it's way into a flight item.

Ash Small

Sun Sept 23 2012, 12:34AM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...

Ash,

It is for non-critical harnesses that are test cables, not the flight stuff, so there is no concern. It's called "Ground Equipment", and it can't make it's way into a flight item.

I wasn't being 'completely' serious, Hazmatt, hence the smiley face. I once obtained authorization to change some aluminium hydraulic clamps to stainless, because I could make them to tighter tolerances......After it went into service the Navy complained that their 'bozo's' couldn't do them back up when they serviced the rams!!...We call it ISO9001 if it's just fabrication, or ISO9002 if it's design, this side of the pond.

You have to design to the capabilities of the maintenance personnel. Maybe the systems of the F22 are beyond the capabilities of the ground crew?

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