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Registered Member #480
Joined: Thu Jul 06 2006, 07:08PM
Location: North America
Posts: 644
IR -
Do some Googling on "skin effect".
High frequency currents flow only on the surface of conductors, with relatively shallow "penetration", so thin wall copper tubing can be just as good a conductor as a solid copper rod. Wide copper strap is frequently used in high power RF circuits because it has lots of surface area relative to its mass.
For your coil, #6 AWG grounding wire is way larger than necessary, but #14 AWG in your primary circuit is probably slightly smaller than optimum.
However, let's focus first on getting your coil running decently, then methodically look at opportunities for incremental improvement. First item to look closely at is tuning, and to verify that your primary circuit has enough adjustment range to bring it into tune with your secondary circuit. If you're still only getting 4-5" streamers with a multi-segment spark gap, something is radically wrong.
Did you learn how to calculate the value of series-connected capacitors? Did you re-run JAVATC with your corrected MMC capacitance value?
I did rerun the JAVTC with the value of the uF you gave me.
We'll worry about the grounding and such later.
As far as the spark gap, I was only getting 4-5" with a single segment gap. I didn't make a multi-gap yet until now. Ive posted a picture of it.
With fixing the terry filter, I tried the coil last week and was looking like I got about a foot long streamer now.
As for the JAVATC, the frequencies are closer than before. I did not get all the connecting wire measured to see how much I'm using yet. Ill do that tonight!
Let me know what you think. Oh and on the primary coil, I only count the turns from basically after the first wrap. like the image shows on the JAVATC.
J A V A T C version 12.5 - CONSOLIDATED OUTPUT Saturday, July 21, 2012 11:45:27 AM
----------------------------------------
------------ Top Load Inputs: ------------------------------------------
----------
--------------------------------------
-------------- Secondary Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 335.43 kHz = Secondary Resonant Frequency 90 deg° = Angle of Secondary 19.25 inch = Length of Winding 58 inch = Turns Per Unit -0.29824 inch = Space Between Turns (edge to edge) 1315.9 ft = Length of Wire 4.28:1 = H/D Aspect Ratio 0.136 Ohms = DC Resistance 49343 Ohms = Reactance at Resonance 396.42 lbs = Weight of Wire 23.412 mH = Les-Effective Series Inductance 27.318 mH = Lee-Equivalent Energy Inductance 29.113 mH = Ldc-Low Frequency Inductance 9.616 pF = Ces-Effective Shunt Capacitance 8.241 pF = Cee-Equivalent Energy Capacitance 19.796 pF = Cdc-Low Frequency Capacitance 1.12 mils = Skin Depth 0 pF = Topload Effective Capacitance 215.981 Ohms = Effective AC Resistance 228 = Q
-----------------------------------------------
----- Primary Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 190.23 kHz = Primary Resonant Frequency 43.29 % high = Percent Detuned 2 deg° = Angle of Primary 52.23 ft = Length of Wire 5.44 mOhms = DC Resistance 0.167 inch = Average spacing between turns (edge to edge) 1.46 inch = Proximity between coils 0 inch = Recommended minimum proximity between coils 74.663 µH = Ldc-Low Frequency Inductance 0.00302 µF = Cap size needed with Primary L (reference) 0 µH = Lead Length Inductance 165.919 µH = Lm-Mutual Inductance 0.113 k = Coupling Coefficient 0.131 k = Recommended Coupling Coefficient 8.85 = Number of half cycles for energy transfer at K 23.07 µs = Time for total energy transfer (ideal quench time)
-------------------------------------------
--------- Transformer Inputs: ------------------------------------------
---------- 0 [volts] = Transformer Rated Input Voltage 0 [volts] = Transformer Rated Output Voltage 0 [mA] = Transformer Rated Output Current 0 [Hz] = Mains Frequency 0 [volts] = Transformer Applied Voltage 0 [amps] = Transformer Ballast Current 0 [ohms] = Measured Primary Resistance 0 [ohms] = Measured Secondary Resistance
--------------------------------------
-------------- Transformer Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 0 [volt*amps] = Rated Transformer VA 0 [ohms] = Transformer Impedence 0 [rms volts] = Effective Output Voltage 0 [rms amps] = Effective Transformer Primary Current 0 [rms amps] = Effective Transformer Secondary Current 0 [volt*amps] = Effective Input VA 0 [uF] = Resonant Cap Size 0 [uF] = Static gap LTR Cap Size 0 [uF] = SRSG LTR Cap Size 0 [uF] = Power Factor Cap Size 0 [peak volts] = Voltage Across Cap 0 [peak volts] = Recommended Cap Voltage Rating 0 [joules] = Primary Cap Energy 0 [peak amps] = Primary Instantaneous Current 0 [inch] = Spark Length (JF equation using Resonance Research Corp. factors) 0 [peak amps] = Sec Base Current
-----------------------------------------
----------- Rotary Spark Gap Inputs: ------------------------------------------
---------- 0 = Number of Stationary Gaps 0 = Number of Rotating Electrodes 0 [rpm] = Disc RPM 0 = Rotating Electrode Diameter 0 = Stationary Electrode Diameter 0 = Rotating Path Diameter
----------------------------------------
------------ Rotary Spark Gap Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 0 = Presentations Per Revolution 0 [BPS] = Breaks Per Second 0 [mph] = Rotational Speed 0 [ms] = RSG Firing Rate 0 [ms] = Time for Capacitor to Fully Charge 0 = Time Constant at Gap Conduction 0 [µs] = Electrode Mechanical Dwell Time 0 [%] = Percent Cp Charged When Gap Fires 0 [peak volts] = Effective Cap Voltage 0 [joules] = Effective Cap Energy 0 [peak volts] = Terminal Voltage 0 [power] = Energy Across Gap 0 [inch] = RSG Spark Length (using energy equation)
---------------------------------------
------------- Static Spark Gap Inputs: ------------------------------------------
---------- 0 = Number of Electrodes 0 [inch] = Electrode Diameter 0 [inch] = Total Gap Spacing
-----------------------------------------
----------- Static Spark Gap Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 0 [inch] = Gap Spacing Between Each Electrode 0 [peak volts] = Charging Voltage 0 [peak volts] = Arc Voltage 0 [volts] = Voltage Gradient at Electrode 0 [volts/inch] = Arc Voltage per unit 0 [%] = Percent Cp Charged When Gap Fires 0 [ms] = Time To Arc Voltage 0 [BPS] = Breaks Per Second 0 [joules] = Effective Cap Energy 0 [peak volts] = Terminal Voltage 0 [power] = Energy Across Gap 0 [inch] = Static Gap Spark Length (using energy equation)
Registered Member #480
Joined: Thu Jul 06 2006, 07:08PM
Location: North America
Posts: 644
IR -
OK, we're s l o w l y inching forward, but you can surely see by the huge mismatch in primary/secondary resonant frequencies that something's seriously wrong with your coil design.
How did you "design" your coil to determine the size of your secondary coilform, the required number of primary and secondary turns, the size of your topload, and the required value of your tank capacitor?
And don't use the capacitance value of your MMC that "I" gave you, use the value that YOU calculated. You do understand (now) how to calculate the value of series and parallel connected capacitors, right? If you don't know how to do this, you won't be able to tune your coil.
Assuming that your inputs are correct, JAVATC is telling you that your secondary circuit is resonating at 335 KHz, but your primary circuit is only resonating at 190 KHz.
THE RESONANT FREQUENCY OF THE PRIMARY AND SECONDARY CIRCUITS MUST BE THE SAME!
So, you're going to have to decrease the resonant frequency of the secondary circuit, or increase the resonant frequency of the primary circuit until the frequencies match.
Do you know how to make modifications to these circuits to change the resonant frequency? If not, you need to do some research YOURSELF to get some basic understanding of how Tesla coils work, what an L-C circuit is, what resonance is, and how to adjust the resonant frequency of a tuned L-C circuit.
Building a Tesla coil is more complex than just hooking up a battery, a light bulb and a switch. You've got to have some basic understanding of electronics, and particularly an understanding of L-C resonant circuits. This is ABSOLUTELY required.
If all of this is foreign to you, a very good place to start your Tesla coil education is here:
Read EVERYTHING about spark-gap Tesla coils, and if you don't understand a concept, feel free to ask here for an explanation.
Again, if you don't have any understanding of what an L-C resonant circuit is, or how to change the frequency of an L-C circuit, you won't be able to get your coil running correctly.
Registered Member #480
Joined: Thu Jul 06 2006, 07:08PM
Location: North America
Posts: 644
IR -
Please CAREFULLY check your inputs again.
According to the JAVATC file you posted, for the secondary wire gage you entered ".2526 AWG". This is NOT the same as entering "26 AWG". JAVATC does NOT have filtering capability to reject nonsensical inputs.
Also, look at your primary inputs. You entered ".25 AWG". This is NOT the same as .25", which obviously is the OD of 1/4" diameter copper tubing. If you are working in "Inches" (see "UNITS" at the very top of the JAVATC page), and you wound your primary using 1/4" tubing, then select "WIRE DIA" and enter ".25".
Note that JAVATC allows you to input primary and secondary conductors either as a decimal diameter, or as a wire gage, specifically AWG (Americal Wire Gage). You MUST select the appropriate check box for either the actual diameter, or the AWG.
I think your new spark gap has some problems. You have 8 electrodes, hence 7 gaps. Looking at your photo, it appears that the spacing between the electrodes (gap width) is not uniform, and that the gap width of most of the gaps may be as much as 1/4". Your TOTAL gap width (the sum of all the individual gaps) should be around .5" to .7". Each electrode must be PERFECTLY PARALLEL to the electrodes on either side of it so the arc between electrodes is not localized at one spot. It takes some attention to detail to assemble a spark gap of this type and get all the electrodes perfectly parallel AND get the correct spacing. Unless you can machine the housing with a CNC machining center, that means that you need to make the electrodes adjustable (slotted holes) so you can set parallelism and gap width.
Initial setup can be done with a stack of business cards; 7 will be about about .070" thick. Place a stack between each pair of electrodes, one stack at each end so the electrodes are parallel. 7 gaps @ .070" = .49"
According to the JAVATC file you posted, for the secondary wire gage you entered ".2526 AWG". This is NOT the same as entering "26 AWG". JAVATC does NOT have filtering capability to reject nonsensical inputs.
Also, look at your primary inputs. You entered ".25 AWG". This is NOT the same as .25", which obviously is the OD of 1/4" diameter copper tubing. If you are working in "Inches" (see "UNITS" at the very top of the JAVATC page), and you wound your primary using 1/4" tubing, then select "WIRE DIA" and enter ".25".
Note that JAVATC allows you to input primary and secondary conductors either as a decimal diameter, or as a wire gage, specifically AWG (Americal Wire Gage). You MUST select the appropriate check box for either the actual diameter, or the AWG.
I think your new spark gap has some problems. You have 8 electrodes, hence 7 gaps. Looking at your photo, it appears that the spacing between the electrodes (gap width) is not uniform, and that the gap width of most of the gaps may be as much as 1/4". Your TOTAL gap width (the sum of all the individual gaps) should be around .5" to .7". Each electrode must be PERFECTLY PARALLEL to the electrodes on either side of it so the arc between electrodes is not localized at one spot. It takes some attention to detail to assemble a spark gap of this type and get all the electrodes perfectly parallel AND get the correct spacing. Unless you can machine the housing with a CNC machining center, that means that you need to make the electrodes adjustable (slotted holes) so you can set parallelism and gap width.
Initial setup can be done with a stack of business cards; 7 will be about about .070" thick. Place a stack between each pair of electrodes, one stack at each end so the electrodes are parallel. 7 gaps @ .070" = .49"
Herr Zapp
Honestly Im not quite sure how it got to be .2526. But I changed it to 26, and selected AWG. The Primary I did screw up and i see that now. I have now changed it to diameter and input .25
The spark gap wasn't done in that picture that was posted. And when I mean by that, is that I hadnt done the gap spacing yet. I am still "Playing" with it
The first time with everything that should be correct, Except for the capacitor value. I sort of understand it but am still learning it. So for now I just used the one that you gave me.
----------------------------------------
------------ Top Load Inputs: ------------------------------------------
----------
--------------------------------------
-------------- Secondary Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 332.06 kHz = Secondary Resonant Frequency 90 deg° = Angle of Secondary 19.25 inch = Length of Winding 58 inch = Turns Per Unit 0.00129 inch = Space Between Turns (edge to edge) 1315.9 ft = Length of Wire 4.28:1 = H/D Aspect Ratio 53.2709 Ohms = DC Resistance 49812 Ohms = Reactance at Resonance 1.01 lbs = Weight of Wire 23.875 mH = Les-Effective Series Inductance 27.862 mH = Lee-Equivalent Energy Inductance 30.005 mH = Ldc-Low Frequency Inductance 9.622 pF = Ces-Effective Shunt Capacitance 8.245 pF = Cee-Equivalent Energy Capacitance 19.796 pF = Cdc-Low Frequency Capacitance 4.99 mils = Skin Depth 0 pF = Topload Effective Capacitance 220.5959 Ohms = Effective AC Resistance 226 = Q
-----------------------------------------------
----- Primary Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 190.19 kHz = Primary Resonant Frequency 42.73 % high = Percent Detuned 2 deg° = Angle of Primary 52.23 ft = Length of Wire 8.67 mOhms = DC Resistance 0.232 inch = Average spacing between turns (edge to edge) 1.643 inch = Proximity between coils 1.37 inch = Recommended minimum proximity between coils 74.698 µH = Ldc-Low Frequency Inductance 0.00308 µF = Cap size needed with Primary L (reference) 0 µH = Lead Length Inductance 165.919 µH = Lm-Mutual Inductance 0.111 k = Coupling Coefficient 0.131 k = Recommended Coupling Coefficient 9.01 = Number of half cycles for energy transfer at K 23.5 µs = Time for total energy transfer (ideal quench time)
-------------------------------------------
--------- Transformer Inputs: ------------------------------------------
---------- 120 [volts] = Transformer Rated Input Voltage 12000 [volts] = Transformer Rated Output Voltage 30 [mA] = Transformer Rated Output Current 60 [Hz] = Mains Frequency 135 [volts] = Transformer Applied Voltage 0 [amps] = Transformer Ballast Current 0 [ohms] = Measured Primary Resistance 0 [ohms] = Measured Secondary Resistance
--------------------------------------
-------------- Transformer Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 360 [volt*amps] = Rated Transformer VA 400000 [ohms] = Transformer Impedence 13500 [rms volts] = Effective Output Voltage 3.38 [rms amps] = Effective Transformer Primary Current 0.0338 [rms amps] = Effective Transformer Secondary Current 456 [volt*amps] = Effective Input VA 0.0066 [uF] = Resonant Cap Size 0.0099 [uF] = Static gap LTR Cap Size 0.0173 [uF] = SRSG LTR Cap Size 66 [uF] = Power Factor Cap Size 19092 [peak volts] = Voltage Across Cap 47730 [peak volts] = Recommended Cap Voltage Rating 1.71 [joules] = Primary Cap Energy 213.9 [peak amps] = Primary Instantaneous Current 30.8 [inch] = Spark Length (JF equation using Resonance Research Corp. factors) 6.9 [peak amps] = Sec Base Current
-----------------------------------------
----------- Rotary Spark Gap Inputs: ------------------------------------------
---------- 0 = Number of Stationary Gaps 0 = Number of Rotating Electrodes 0 [rpm] = Disc RPM 0 = Rotating Electrode Diameter 0 = Stationary Electrode Diameter 0 = Rotating Path Diameter
----------------------------------------
------------ Rotary Spark Gap Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 0 = Presentations Per Revolution 0 [BPS] = Breaks Per Second 0 [mph] = Rotational Speed 0 [ms] = RSG Firing Rate 0 [ms] = Time for Capacitor to Fully Charge 0 = Time Constant at Gap Conduction 0 [µs] = Electrode Mechanical Dwell Time 0 [%] = Percent Cp Charged When Gap Fires 0 [peak volts] = Effective Cap Voltage 0 [joules] = Effective Cap Energy 0 [peak volts] = Terminal Voltage 0 [power] = Energy Across Gap 0 [inch] = RSG Spark Length (using energy equation)
---------------------------------------
------------- Static Spark Gap Inputs: ------------------------------------------
---------- 8 = Number of Electrodes 0.25 [inch] = Electrode Diameter 0.6 [inch] = Total Gap Spacing
-----------------------------------------
----------- Static Spark Gap Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 0.086 [inch] = Gap Spacing Between Each Electrode 19092 [peak volts] = Charging Voltage 23907 [peak volts] = Arc Voltage 31374 [volts] = Voltage Gradient at Electrode 39845 [volts/inch] = Arc Voltage per unit 125.2 [%] = Percent Cp Charged When Gap Fires 11.79 [ms] = Time To Arc Voltage 85 [BPS] = Breaks Per Second 2.68 [joules] = Effective Cap Energy 806143 [peak volts] = Terminal Voltage 227 [power] = Energy Across Gap 34.1 [inch] = Static Gap Spark Length (using energy equation)
Now he is the Second run, What I did was play with the primary coil turns. What I have is 14 turns. I decided to play around with it and shorten the turns. If I I take off some of the turns down to 8 turns total My frequency's are almost identical.
----------------------------------------
------------ Top Load Inputs: ------------------------------------------
----------
--------------------------------------
-------------- Secondary Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 332.06 kHz = Secondary Resonant Frequency 90 deg° = Angle of Secondary 19.25 inch = Length of Winding 58 inch = Turns Per Unit 0.00129 inch = Space Between Turns (edge to edge) 1315.9 ft = Length of Wire 4.28:1 = H/D Aspect Ratio 53.2709 Ohms = DC Resistance 49807 Ohms = Reactance at Resonance 1.01 lbs = Weight of Wire 23.872 mH = Les-Effective Series Inductance 27.859 mH = Lee-Equivalent Energy Inductance 30.005 mH = Ldc-Low Frequency Inductance 9.623 pF = Ces-Effective Shunt Capacitance 8.246 pF = Cee-Equivalent Energy Capacitance 19.796 pF = Cdc-Low Frequency Capacitance 4.99 mils = Skin Depth 0 pF = Topload Effective Capacitance 220.5959 Ohms = Effective AC Resistance 226 = Q
-----------------------------------------------
----- Primary Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 332.83 kHz = Primary Resonant Frequency 0.23 % low = Percent Detuned 2 deg° = Angle of Primary 29.85 ft = Length of Wire 4.95 mOhms = DC Resistance 0.594 inch = Average spacing between turns (edge to edge) 1.643 inch = Proximity between coils 1.37 inch = Recommended minimum proximity between coils 24.391 µH = Ldc-Low Frequency Inductance 0.00942 µF = Cap size needed with Primary L (reference) 0 µH = Lead Length Inductance 94.811 µH = Lm-Mutual Inductance 0.111 k = Coupling Coefficient 0.131 k = Recommended Coupling Coefficient 9.01 = Number of half cycles for energy transfer at K 13.43 µs = Time for total energy transfer (ideal quench time)
-------------------------------------------
--------- Transformer Inputs: ------------------------------------------
---------- 120 [volts] = Transformer Rated Input Voltage 12000 [volts] = Transformer Rated Output Voltage 30 [mA] = Transformer Rated Output Current 60 [Hz] = Mains Frequency 135 [volts] = Transformer Applied Voltage 0 [amps] = Transformer Ballast Current 0 [ohms] = Measured Primary Resistance 0 [ohms] = Measured Secondary Resistance
--------------------------------------
-------------- Transformer Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 360 [volt*amps] = Rated Transformer VA 400000 [ohms] = Transformer Impedence 13500 [rms volts] = Effective Output Voltage 3.38 [rms amps] = Effective Transformer Primary Current 0.0338 [rms amps] = Effective Transformer Secondary Current 456 [volt*amps] = Effective Input VA 0.0066 [uF] = Resonant Cap Size 0.0099 [uF] = Static gap LTR Cap Size 0.0173 [uF] = SRSG LTR Cap Size 66 [uF] = Power Factor Cap Size 19092 [peak volts] = Voltage Across Cap 47730 [peak volts] = Recommended Cap Voltage Rating 1.71 [joules] = Primary Cap Energy 374.3 [peak amps] = Primary Instantaneous Current 30.8 [inch] = Spark Length (JF equation using Resonance Research Corp. factors) 12 [peak amps] = Sec Base Current
-----------------------------------------
----------- Rotary Spark Gap Inputs: ------------------------------------------
---------- 0 = Number of Stationary Gaps 0 = Number of Rotating Electrodes 0 [rpm] = Disc RPM 0 = Rotating Electrode Diameter 0 = Stationary Electrode Diameter 0 = Rotating Path Diameter
----------------------------------------
------------ Rotary Spark Gap Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 0 = Presentations Per Revolution 0 [BPS] = Breaks Per Second 0 [mph] = Rotational Speed 0 [ms] = RSG Firing Rate 0 [ms] = Time for Capacitor to Fully Charge 0 = Time Constant at Gap Conduction 0 [µs] = Electrode Mechanical Dwell Time 0 [%] = Percent Cp Charged When Gap Fires 0 [peak volts] = Effective Cap Voltage 0 [joules] = Effective Cap Energy 0 [peak volts] = Terminal Voltage 0 [power] = Energy Across Gap 0 [inch] = RSG Spark Length (using energy equation)
---------------------------------------
------------- Static Spark Gap Inputs: ------------------------------------------
---------- 8 = Number of Electrodes 0.25 [inch] = Electrode Diameter 0.6 [inch] = Total Gap Spacing
-----------------------------------------
----------- Static Spark Gap Outputs: -----------------------------------------
----------- 0.086 [inch] = Gap Spacing Between Each Electrode 19092 [peak volts] = Charging Voltage 23907 [peak volts] = Arc Voltage 31374 [volts] = Voltage Gradient at Electrode 39845 [volts/inch] = Arc Voltage per unit 125.2 [%] = Percent Cp Charged When Gap Fires 11.79 [ms] = Time To Arc Voltage 85 [BPS] = Breaks Per Second 2.68 [joules] = Effective Cap Energy 806094 [peak volts] = Terminal Voltage 227 [power] = Energy Across Gap 34.1 [inch] = Static Gap Spark Length (using energy equation)
You're getting there! The only thing you forgot is that when you reduce the number of turns on the primary, you have to reduce the radius as well. It should only slightly affect things but this would be ball-park enough to test the coil at 8 turns and tune from there. Remember that changing any capacitance value (tank cap or top load) greatly affects the number of turns needed on the primary.
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First time Tesla builder, Terry Filter caps popping?
