Black boxes in cars / General Chatting / Forums

Forums

4hv.org :: Forums :: General Chatting

« Previous topic | Next topic »

Black boxes in cars

1 2 next

Move Thread

LAN_403

Conundrum

Thu Apr 19 2012, 07:03PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4062

I am aware this is somewhat off topic, but it does show how one "solution" to bad driving can create another problem (ie GPS blockers) which then allows the Government to make owning a schematic for any radio transmitter capable of blocking GPS devices an offence.
This is happening right now in the UK, if passed then it is likely that the Government will have yet another reason to harass innocent amateur radio enthusiasts/TCers, etc.

(minor edit, in my judgement this went a bit too far up the garden path)

Mattski

Fri Apr 20 2012, 01:06AM

Registered Member #1792 Joined: Fri Oct 31 2008, 08:12PM
Location: University of California
Posts: 527

Isn't jamming GPS already illegal? Why would vehicular black boxes change that? It's not even clear to me that the vehicular black boxes would include a GPS receiver, they're much more concerned about things like speed, acceleration, braking data, impact forces, etc.

I am way more concerned about the privacy issues here than about possible increased scrutiny of GPS jammers.

wrote ...
It also occurs to me that this would be an ideal way for the Government to get old cars off the roads without changing the law, by requiring a minimum specification for the boxes to work.
No box = no using the roads.

That's rarely (if ever) how it works with new vehicular standards. The old cars will be grandfathered in.

Steve Conner

Fri Apr 20 2012, 08:06AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

Recently I was shopping for car insurance. The broker said that I might get lower premiums if I was prepared to have a tracking device installed in my car.

It wasn't clear if this was to track it when stolen, or to assess my driving habits and make sure I wasn't lying about mileage. Either way I said no thx.

Avalanche

Fri Apr 20 2012, 11:47AM

Registered Member #103 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:16PM
Location: Derby, UK
Posts: 845

My Boss's son has one of those tracking devices, and it saved hundreds on the insurance. It tracks driving habits, so along with the GPS it knows if he is breaking the speed limit, etc. Every month you're awarded 'points' for good driving habits, which I guess go towards lowering the premium.

Car insurance is so expensive in the UK that this is becoming pretty much the only way forward for young drivers now, if I was 18 again I wouldn't be able to afford it without the tracker.

Conundrum

Fri Apr 20 2012, 06:07PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4062

This is my point. People are willing to give up their right to privacy in exchange for being able to drive.
The police state is here folks, leave your rights at the door.

Ironically a device designed to mess up GPS lock but with only a 2" range would be undetectable and if calibrated with a range of false locations and speeds to get around clever software the purpose of the device would be negated without affecting the safety functions.
I am reluctant to give further details but it involves using a ceramic chip antenna as the rebroadcaster element as it is range limited by design.

-A
#include "Â£0.02.h"

Bored Chemist

Fri Apr 20 2012, 06:15PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

They are giving up their right to break the law in order to get cheaper insurance. Since that means they are less likely to kill me I'm not to upset about that.
Anyway, since running any sort of unlicensed transmitter has been illegal in the UK since 1949, the point about the jammers is pretty much moot.

The invasion of privacy is a bad thing, but lets not muddle it up with other things, because that just muddies the waters.

Dr. Slack

Fri Apr 20 2012, 06:17PM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

Some friends of ours have just got an insurance black box, to keep the cost of insuring their 18 year old son down. However, whereas they used to agree to differ when it came to driving styles, in the spirit of marital harmony, they can't do that now. The Father always gets a clean report when he comes back after a drive. The Mother, no matter how careful she tries to be, is always criticised by the report for braking/cornering/accelerating too hard. The strain of him not saying "I always said you were a bad driver" is taking its toll.

Mattski

Fri Apr 20 2012, 08:10PM

Registered Member #1792 Joined: Fri Oct 31 2008, 08:12PM
Location: University of California
Posts: 527

People have a right to give up their privacy in exchange for lower insurance rates. This isn't the govt invading your privacy, it's the insurance companies. I'd have a problem with insurance companies requiring black boxes, but by not using a black box there is less known about you, thus investment risk is increased and your premium could be higher as a result.

I'm pretty sure these black boxes rely on speedometer data and IMU's, not GPS. It's easier to get speed and acceleration from the car's speedometer and accelerometers than it is from GPS. Spoofing the GPS is possible, though not particularly easy, and could get you in a lot of trouble. If you're concerned about hiding your location just block the antenna, or better, don't opt-in to a black box.

testtest

Fri Apr 20 2012, 11:06PM

Registered Member #3271 Joined: Mon Oct 04 2010, 02:29AM
Location: Canada
Posts: 159

many of these black boxes that I read about seem to plug on the OBDII diagnostic plug in the car. Therefore easy to manipulate the data with a dongle before it gets to the (presumably sealed) box. I would assume it is not fixed permanently since mechanics and emission testing need access anyway??? As far as GPS is concerned if you want to hide use the proverbial tinfoil hat: shape an Al foil cap over the antenna before you reach the critical destination....

Steve Conner

Sat Apr 21 2012, 06:04AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

The problem with spoofing your black box is when you crash and want to submit an insurance claim. If the black box data says the car is in the car park at Tesco, but it's actually wrapped round a tree on the Nurburgring, you have some explaining to do.

1 2 next

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob