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4hv.org :: Forums :: High Voltage
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a question about spark-gaps...

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Patrick
Wed Feb 15 2012, 02:10AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
Antonio wrote ...

(If I look for Atlas and sparkgap I find the post above...)
From the discussion above I found several ways to measure DC high voltage, that I started to describe in the page that I posted. The last method, that works surprisingly well, is the old pair of pith balls. I even found a good formula relating voltage and separation of the balls. It's a common basic Physics exercise, but strangely recent texts don't try to find that relation. Link2
On your page, shouldnt it be F/m=tan theta, not W for wheight? arnt mass and wheight different?
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govtcontact
Wed Feb 15 2012, 03:20AM
govtcontact Registered Member #343 Joined: Fri Mar 24 2006, 02:45PM
Location: Los Alamos NM
Posts: 10
Sorry, I should have stated to search in the "Energy Citations Database"...Here is the link to the report, pg 6 & 7 show the rail gap design: Link2
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Antonio
Wed Feb 15 2012, 12:50PM
Antonio Registered Member #834 Joined: Tue Jun 12 2007, 10:57PM
Location: Brazil
Posts: 644
Patrick wrote ...

On your page, shouldnt it be F/m=tan theta, not W for wheight? arnt mass and wheight different?

Weight is mass x gravity acceleration, mg.
F/(mg)=tan theta
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AleSeg
Wed Feb 15 2012, 09:20PM
AleSeg Registered Member #2727 Joined: Tue Mar 09 2010, 02:39PM
Location: Montevideo - Uruguay
Posts: 33
Hi Patrick, Antonio and all people.
I'm sorry but I'm not sure of understand at all the spark gap voltage measure for short gap distances.
I plotted the aproximated function that Antonio propose for short gaps end has found that the gap value for 30 kV/cm is situed in the vecinity of d= 1 cm far away of short gap range.
My doubt is about what to do in between short gaps (d<<R) and normal gaps, because I have a step in kv/cm not covered for the initial formulae nor the short gap breakdown voltage aproximation.
For the record I write here the scilab script ussed for plot the graph exposed.
Ebreak Vs D
// The formula for sphere gaps can be used for small gaps if the 30000 is replaced by
// the value obtained in this way divided by the distance d, but the formula above is
// enough for R>>d.
//

function E = Vbreakdown(d,p,T)
        // p = pressure in Torr (mm Hg),
        // d = distance in cm,
        // T = Temperature in Kelvins
        // Vbreakdown in kV
    x = 293 * p * d / (760 * T);
    E = 24.22 * x + 6.08 * x.^0.5;
    return E;
endfunction
    
    
function Vbrk=SparkGap(d)    
              // d separation in cm
R=3/4*2.54;   // ball radius cm
E=30;         // kV/cm break down voltage
    Vbrk = E*4000*d/(d/R+1+sqrt((d/R+1)^2+8))
    return Vbrk
endfunction

d=0.02:0.02:2;  // only a list of d separation values in cm
E=Vbreakdown(d,760,273+25);  // respective values in kV
plot(d,E./d)
set(gca(),"grid",[1 1]); // draw a grid in both axes
xtitle('Breakdown electric field ~Vs~ separation d','d  [cm]','E/d  [kV/cm]');

Thank to all of you.
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Antonio
Thu Feb 16 2012, 12:00AM
Antonio Registered Member #834 Joined: Tue Jun 12 2007, 10:57PM
Location: Brazil
Posts: 644
AleSeg wrote ...

Hi Patrick, Antonio and all people.
I'm sorry but I'm not sure of understand at all the spark gap voltage measure for short gap distances.
I plotted the aproximated function that Antonio propose for short gaps end has found that the gap value for 30 kV/cm is situed in the vecinity of d= 1 cm far away of short gap range.
My doubt is about what to do in between short gaps (d<<R) and normal gaps, because I have a step in kv/cm not covered for the initial formulae nor the short gap breakdown voltage aproximation.
For the record I write here the scilab script ussed for plot the graph exposed.

Your plot is correct.
The idea is to calculate E using the formula for it and then use the calculated E in the other formula. The second formula reduces to V=Ed at short distances. There is a better approximation for E for long gaps in my web page, where E depends on the radius of the balls and not on the gap distance.
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teravolt
Thu Feb 16 2012, 03:44AM
teravolt Registered Member #195 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 08:27PM
Location: Berkeley, ca.
Posts: 1111
Hi Patrick, how much voltage do you want to hold off and how much power do you want to switch? have you thought about using UV to trigger it
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Patrick
Thu Feb 16 2012, 04:01AM
Patrick Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
teravolt wrote ...

Hi Patrick, how much voltage do you want to hold off and how much power do you want to switch? have you thought about using UV to trigger it
i just want to measure, like my oscope probe and for the physical seperation of my lifter wires. I think ishould use a 10M ohm resistor to limit some of the spark energy though.
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Proud Mary
Fri Feb 17 2012, 06:50AM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
A bit of a digression in terms of gap scale, smile but added here for the sake of interest and completion:

"...there is a widespread misconception that there exists a minimum breakdown voltage for air gaps and that if the spacing of a device is scaled-down below ~ 5
μm then breakdown will not occur.

It is important to understand that electrical current can result from mechanisms other than the Townsend avalanche within an ionized gas, and that these other mechanisms are not considered in the theory behind the Paschen curve. Thus, while it is true to conclude from the Paschen curve that gaseous breakdown at 1
atmosphere pressure does not occur below ~ 360V, it is false to conclude that breakdown of any kind does not occur below 360V.

The other mechanisms for prebreakdown current production at a small gap spacing are the closely related phenomena of electron field emission and tunneling. For electric fields across gaps less than 5 μm, the electric field becomes quite large and electrons can tunnel through the deformed surface potential barrier. This is called field emission. Electrons from field emission are one reason why breakdown and sparks occur in a vacuum, which of course is not possible if one
only considers the Townsend Avalanche mechanisms for gas ionization used to generate the Paschen curve."


These authors report a "steep decline in breakdown voltage for a gap spacing less than 5 μm."

Al Wallash and Larry Levit Electrical breakdown and ESD phenomena for devices with nanometer-to-micron gaps Link2
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Antonio
Fri Feb 17 2012, 12:12PM
Antonio Registered Member #834 Joined: Tue Jun 12 2007, 10:57PM
Location: Brazil
Posts: 644
I had seen this paper. I am not sure about its correctness. The experimental gaps are not in air between flat surfaces or are not precise, and the plots are confuse. For example, they show the 30 kV/cm value going to a 5um gap, what is clearly wrong. There is significant investigation (or there should be) about the actual behavior of very small gaps today, due to the interest in MEMS devices, and these same devices may be a form to build precise experimental setups to investigate what really happens. The "Paschen curve" comes from works in the XIX century, and it's not clear if it was really verified carefully (or just I have not seen any recent confirmation). Most of the studies about spark gaps are with quite large gaps, with interest in the protection and measurement of electric power systems, with many-kV voltages and many-cm gaps. It's difficult to find careful, confirmed, studies of um gaps, if any one has been made.
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Proud Mary
Fri Feb 17 2012, 01:32PM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
@ Antonio, I agree that a discharge in air at atmospheric pressure across a surface could give very different results to an experiment where air was the only dielectric involved. More will be discovered soon, I think.

Anyway, I had better take myself and my submicron gaps out of poor Patrick's thread! smile
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