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Arcstarter

Tue Jul 12 2011, 01:19AM

Registered Member #1225 Joined: Sat Jan 12 2008, 01:24AM
Location: Beaumont, Texas, USA
Posts: 2253

I also had the idea of bringing something homemade to an interview. There is a Miller place very close to me, and i have a friend on the internet that works for the same company that could try to put in a good word for me. I figured i would make a welder to prove myself. I would tell them that i would be willing to start with something janitorial or something else, and work my way up. I have still not done this, and i don't know how good of an idea it is. Either way, i feel much more confident that i could get a job having a GED, and having a degree would say much more about me than a GED.

Well, about the services. Personally, i would not hire someone that has no track record and no degree. People aren't going to take the time to listen to you explain how good you are, they have jobs of their own to worry about. The general consensus is that anyone that can't (or doesn't) go through college can't be any smarter than a typical highschooler. As unfair as it may be, it is also true alot of the time. If people didn't judge others, then they would make bad decisions.

I have always felt that owning my own company is the only way i would be happy, and i still do. But for me, just some guy (at least to people that don't know me), it is unrealistic. Gifted or not, there is nothing that makes me any more likely to start a successful company than some guy from the street.

Nah

Tue Jul 12 2011, 01:44AM

Registered Member #3567 Joined: Mon Jan 03 2011, 10:49PM
Location: USA, 1960s
Posts: 260

Just one point....

There are around 10-20 companies that sell electronics, and the reason Heathkit went out was that before ICs, it was really cheaper to build a kit than to buy it (heathkits were made to be used as real test equipment. Now, due to advances in ics, it is almost impossible for the hobbiest to recreate test equipment (heathkits were on par with RCA and other stuff sometimes), it is cheaper to buy from the sompany now. So, there sin't any point in building a kit other than fun, before, it was to save money.

Patrick

Tue Jul 12 2011, 01:49AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

The cost of a college education in america is a scam, we leave college in debt. Early in life compounding interest makes that debt cost even more then if that debt were incured at 50 instead of 25. Of those of us who do graduate, the degree says nothing about your competance and usefullness to an employer. Worse of all, a college education costs young people too much in the area of work experience, experience that is most valuable... early in life, when one needs to proove themselves worthy to an employer.

Just because somene doesnt have a degree, does not mean their life has no value.
Just because someone has a college degree doesnt mean they are competent or intelligent.

Some of the dumbest-Incompent-worthless people I know have PhD's. Some are even professors.

Arcstarter

Tue Jul 12 2011, 01:55AM

Registered Member #1225 Joined: Sat Jan 12 2008, 01:24AM
Location: Beaumont, Texas, USA
Posts: 2253

Just because somene doesnt have a degree, does not mean their life has no value.
Just because someone has a college degree doesnt mean they are competent or intelligent.

Be that as it may, it is the closest we can get to knowing the truth, because a person sure isn't going to tell you the truth!

Adam Munich

Tue Jul 12 2011, 02:05AM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242

Patrick shares my opinion.

As for kits, yeah I know some of them are just for fun, but some of the ideas I have in mind can't be bought elsewhere, and therefore a kit is the only option. And of course, I won't forget the arduino people. I have 3 awesome ideas for arduinos that could be big hits. Right now I just need to get planning, and get ready for th kickstarter campaign.

deef

Tue Jul 12 2011, 02:13AM

Registered Member #207 Joined: Sat Feb 18 2006, 05:14PM
Location:
Posts: 45

Well, alrighty. It looks like you've made up your mind. I don't want to discourage you, or even sound like a pessimist, but you should probably consider some of the following points:

1) Serious companies require forecasting, and insight about their own deliverables and capabilities. "Headdesking" sometimes isn't acceptable, especially if you have a deliverable that's past due and now costing you money. You need the skills to forecast these events. Development cycles can't run infinitely until things *happen* to work out. How would a business budget for this kind of thing?

2) "If my first business idea flops that's not really a huge deal, and I can recover from it and start with a different business". People don't live forever, and you only get so many opportunities. You may be uncomfortable with your situation at the moment, but how is it going to feel being fourty-five years old with a dozen failed businesses behind you? Even if it costs you no money, you're still stuck with the opprotunity cost. Your decisions, and the time you've spent pursing them, cost you money. Whether it's dollars and cents, or sweat, your are paying for it. You're naive to accept anything but that reality. Sure, I'm playing devil's advocate when I say fourty-five years old and a dozen failed businesses. But, why would you want to do *anything* that doesn't increase your chance for success? There will be plenty of challenges as it is, why does the road need to get any rockier?

3) Your approach towards borrowing money is really, really short sighted and scary. There is nothing wrong with managed debt. Every business uses it to leverage their success. There is nothing intelligent about forgoing a calculated venture due to the fact that it puts the books temporarily in the red -- that is, if the solution and payoff can be forecasted. Being ignorant to the concept of borrowing, on principal alone, is really going to bottleneck your profitability. You want to do "3d printing on the cheap". Are you going to pay for that printer with cash? Unless you have that sort of money off-hand, you're really going to limit your ability to grow while you're selling other products and saving up your pennies. These are very, very basic concepts that you can take courses on. In Canada (where I'm from) these sorts of courses are a part of every engineering degree. This is not a coincidence.

4) You can't run your office any way you want. Realistically, you'll have to run it the way your customers want you to (especially starting out), such that you can maintain a business in the first place. And this is especially so if you're competing in a market with direct competition. If you persist to run things exactly as you want, you will undoubtedly be sacrificing either immediate profitability or the growth of your company. It sounds like you want to setup a clubhouse, not a business :)

5) Google was spawned out of a graduate school. This is not a coincidence. And, their "fun" atmosphere has more to do with methods of managing creative/intelligent people in a stressful environment than it does with giving people a job they love.

There are other points to be made, but it seems like you've already made up your mind. So really, what's the point?

You remind me a lot of myself (with respect to the things that motive you, and your entrepreneurial ambitions), so I can respect your position on the typical 9-5 job. If you really, can't possibly, stand getting a four-year degree I suggest you split the difference. Take some on-topic courses in economics, business acumen, and law. Again, I don't want to sound negative, but it sounds like you have a lot to learn in those topics. Unless of course you'd rather learn as you go along. Trust me, the lessons will be instilled in your head one way or another. The easy way or the hard way.

To wrap things up: Are you going to be able to put something together that's profitable? Maybe. But, your approach lays everything on the line. You've chosen to willfully avoid education. This education would help you with your business and potentially save your ass if things turn south. Does any of that seem like sound decision making to you?

If you continue to ignore the message preached in this thread, please have your "watson" read it. The message needs to get through to one of you at least.

Patrick

Tue Jul 12 2011, 02:36AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

wait till Sally Mae falls apart they do most of the financing for college loans, like the hosuing market with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

Im just saying that i used to be a real believer in education when i graduated HS, but now, im a bit wiser, and see the scam being perpetrated against american kids like me. We are told by college conselors about all the need and value of a college degree, but when we arrive on campus were saddled up with non-stop expenses, including student loans which must be repaid under unique contract law here in the US, the only loans that you cannot default or bankrupt out on--- student loans.

My biggest complaint is this, they dont teach us what we need to know for a profession, and they reqiure things which we dont need at all, like art history, (I have a list of worthless classes the state of California expects at the CC and CSU level.)

Above all else I have come to this conclusion: I need a college degree because everyone is expected to have one, however, when so many have college degrees, will the common degess no longer convey any meaning, since everyone will have a AA/LA degree, there will be no way to discriminate among people, which was what college was originally meant for, to seperate the "worthy" from the savages and commoners.

deef wrote ...

... these sorts of courses are a part of every engineering degree. This is not a coincidence....

...To wrap things up: Are you going to be able to put something together that's profitable? Maybe. But, your approach lays everything on the line. You've chosen to willfully avoid education. This education would help you with your business and potentially save your ass if things turn south. Does any of that seem like sound decision making to you?

Deef: you seem to have missed an important point. Just to be clear, the posession of a degree doesnt mean the the presence of knowledge, education or competence. Grenadier and I are not advocating for no education, but for the right and useful education, whether college is the right way for society to seek that education is the debate.

deef

Tue Jul 12 2011, 03:22AM

Registered Member #207 Joined: Sat Feb 18 2006, 05:14PM
Location:
Posts: 45

Patrick: I completely agree with you.

Maybe I misunderstood the point Grenadier was trying to make. If the argument is "targeted education" versus "a degree", then there are a lot more factors at play and I would be more open minded to the concept of skipping the degree. Ultimately, because there is still some "targeted education" occurring. I was under the impression that the decision was basically: "Start a business right now" or "Spend four years getting an EE degree". Or something to that effect. The crux being that the options are mutually exclusive.

However, don't overlook some of the points I made in my first reply. That is, the fact that by not obtaining a degree, you may be diminishing your profitability due to the fact that you're reducing the type of work you can legally do within your country/industry. Not to mention, potentially sacrificing a standard level of compensation that coincides with the professional accreditation. I feel that this point is especially strong when forming a company due to the need to establish *some* kind of reliable revenue source. Again, why limit your options?

Also, I think we agree on the point that a degree, by no means, guarantees success, or even guarantees that you're ahead of the pack. However, I think we would agree that this applies to some industries (and therefore, degrees) mpre than others. Take, for example, someone pursuing a general arts degree versus somebody obtaining an degree in dental medicine (for example). It goes with out saying that the road ahead is much less certain for the former than the latter. This is so even if the same level of qualifications are held in each respective discipline.

In my last post, I tried to convey much of what you're saying. That is, sure, it's possible to achieve anything without a degree. But I'm looking at things from a statistical point of view. In other words, what's *easiest* and most certain to ensure success. And if the goal is creating a profitable business in the field of electrical engineering, ultimately more education is going to be a staunch advantage *most* of the time.

Thus, if success is the goal, obtaining a degree might be a good idea.

Adam Munich

Tue Jul 12 2011, 03:35AM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242

@deef, I'm aware that some debt is beneficial to a business's growth, but I don't plan on going into any debt until I am sure that I am able to bring in the money. If the future is not secure, don't make it worse by going in the red.

This summer I've been reading a lot about economics and businesses on the internet, and in my senior year of HS I'm taking a business course.

As for my degree, as of right now I'm in an EE class for part of the high school day. At the end of the 2 year course you get a fancy paper stating that you took the class, an although I'm learning nothing new it is something to fall back on. The class also requires an internship to get that paper, so I wil have referances if needed. Inducktion is in the same class. Also, the soon to be large amount of guides on my website could be put on a resume, and that will show that I know what the hell I am doing.

@patrick Sally Mae will without any doubt go the way of freddie and frannie. You just cannot give loans to people who cannot afford to replay them, as seen by the housing bubble. And since colleges know that students can get loans w/o rejection, there is no competition between colleges --they just charge more and more every year for no reason.

Carbon_Rod

Tue Jul 12 2011, 07:58AM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

University can be a great equalizer, but starting a business that survives more than 5 years is difficult.

The odds are 3 in 5 attempts fail in their first three years, and for every service based company that succeeds... 3 hardware companies have failed.
The internet has very low barriers to entry, few lucrative markets, and countless desperate people willing to do more for less. Most venture capitalists will not touch internet businesses for this reason (e.x. see what Google+ will do to Facebook).

Student loans can be difficult, but tuition and interest on the loan itself is almost always tax deductible.
(This money will go to the government anyways)

Never assume an institution will teach you how to be successful, as there are plenty of 4.0 GPA double majors working minimum wage jobs. (i.e. no practical job experience in their field.)

Think about practical options, and diversify your skill set by working on campus with something related to your interests. This will give actual experience in your field, and quickly identify jobs you wouldn't wish to attend long-term.

As one gets older, it becomes more and more difficult to return to studies... you will find a high tax bracket makes projects much easier to facilitate...

Universities have some of the best equipment, countless business opportunities, and start-up seed programs for students.

My advice... do both... like sparkfun did... =)

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