If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.
Special Thanks To:
Aaron Holmes
Aaron Wheeler
Adam Horden
Alan Scrimgeour
Andre
Andrew Haynes
Anonymous000
asabase
Austin Weil
barney
Barry
Bert Hickman
Bill Kukowski
Blitzorn
Brandon Paradelas
Bruce Bowling
BubeeMike
Byong Park
Cesiumsponge
Chris F.
Chris Hooper
Corey Worthington
Derek Woodroffe
Dalus
Dan Strother
Daniel Davis
Daniel Uhrenholt
datasheetarchive
Dave Billington
Dave Marshall
David F.
Dennis Rogers
drelectrix
Dr. John Gudenas
Dr. Spark
E.TexasTesla
eastvoltresearch
Eirik Taylor
Erik Dyakov
Erlend^SE
Finn Hammer
Firebug24k
GalliumMan
Gary Peterson
George Slade
GhostNull
Gordon Mcknight
Graham Armitage
Grant
GreySoul
Henry H
IamSmooth
In memory of Leo Powning
Jacob Cash
James Howells
James Pawson
Jeff Greenfield
Jeff Thomas
Jesse Frost
Jim Mitchell
jlr134
Joe Mastroianni
John Forcina
John Oberg
John Willcutt
Jon Newcomb
klugesmith
Leslie Wright
Lutz Hoffman
Mads Barnkob
Martin King
Mats Karlsson
Matt Gibson
Matthew Guidry
mbd
Michael D'Angelo
Mikkel
mileswaldron
mister_rf
Neil Foster
Nick de Smith
Nick Soroka
nicklenorp
Nik
Norman Stanley
Patrick Coleman
Paul Brodie
Paul Jordan
Paul Montgomery
Ped
Peter Krogen
Peter Terren
PhilGood
Richard Feldman
Robert Bush
Royce Bailey
Scott Fusare
Scott Newman
smiffy
Stella
Steven Busic
Steve Conner
Steve Jones
Steve Ward
Sulaiman
Thomas Coyle
Thomas A. Wallace
Thomas W
Timo
Torch
Ulf Jonsson
vasil
Vaxian
vladi mazzilli
wastehl
Weston
William Kim
William N.
William Stehl
Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Registered Member #2893
Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242
Well... I need to make some.
As some of you might know I plan on starting a company focused on the electronics hobby, and hope to do so within 2 years. In the beginning it will sell small electronics kits, but as time moves on I plan on making it as big as heathkit once was; selling consumer products that people can assemble and use (but I would also sell things pre made at a higher cost, since some people just can't handle a soldering iron). I also plan on offering services to hobbyists, 3d printing on the cheap (ponoko is freaking pricey) and other things.
Startup money for the business will be a kickstarter campaign and the $10k I have in the bank. I'll probably end up running the thing out of a toolshed and working 60 hours a week in the beginning, but as the business grows things get easier.
Now here's one choice I have to make; For profit or Non-profit?
What a non-profit has going for it is that it's easy to get sponsors and hold fundraisers, plus no taxes. But the issues I see with a non-profit is it's very unstable. By this I mean a non-profit is very unstable for lack of a better term. It relies on "the now", and during an economic downturn it can have trouble staying afloat.
Another issue with a non-profit is I can't build up a large savings account. Now why is that a problem since, I live modestly, and money is a tool and not something to be amassed? Well it's a problem because I want to start a fund -- a fund in where people basically can get cheap parts to build their projects (IE they pay 20% of the cost and the fund pays the rest). With a non-profit that would be hard to do since there would need to be a lot of turnover and little profit in order to keep NPO status, while with a for-profit that money could just be placed in the fund for when it is needed, even if it does get federally taxed.
Forgot what else I was going to say about that... but onto another topic:
College. Is it needed? Right now excluding 13th grade (community colleges) average costs including room and board are $31,704 in NY. This has been going up about $1k each year, so a 4 year term is $130,000! Now student loans have an apr of about 6%, so the costs REALLY add up.
Collegeboard and other biased organizations tell you that you'll make on average $1M more during your lifetime, but the thing they don't tell you is that is the stats for a 6 year degree. Total cost for that excluding lost wages is about $200k, so a net revenue of $800k would be made, assuming you paid off college loans instantly. To me that sounds like a terrible investment when in 4 years I can have a business running and growing, and be raking in the dollars. How the hell can I start the parts fund when I'm 200k in debt? Heh, some fancy paper sure as hell won't help me!
If worst comes to worst and the business flops, Getting a job shouldn't be all that hard. Why? I can go into an interview, and pull out a synchronous buck converter of my design, then explain how it runs in discontinuous mode and all the fancy goodness. Now, who do you think the employer would want? Some guy with a paper or some guy who pulled out a damn homemade smps?
Registered Member #3781
Joined: Sat Mar 26 2011, 02:25AM
Location:
Posts: 701
Grenadier wrote ...
College. Is it needed? Right now excluding 13th grade (community colleges) average costs including room and board are $31,704 in NY. This has been going up about $1k each year, so a 4 year term is $130,000! Now student loans have an apr of about 6%, so the costs REALLY add up.
Collegeboard and other biased organizations tell you that you'll make on average $1M more during your lifetime, but the thing they don't tell you is that is the stats for a 6 year degree. Total cost for that excluding lost wages is about $200k, so a net revenue of $800k would be made, assuming you paid off college loans instantly. To me that sounds like a terrible investment when in 4 years I can have a business running and growing, and be raking in the dollars. How the hell can I start the parts fund when I'm 200k in debt? Heh, some fancy paper sure as hell won't help me!
If worst comes to worst and the business flops, Getting a job shouldn't be all that hard. Why? I can go into an interview, and pull out a synchronous buck converter of my design, then explain how it runs in discontinuous mode and all the fancy goodness. Now, who do you think the employer would want? Some guy with a paper or some guy who pulled out a damn homemade smps?
>puts flamesuit on<
I guess it depends on what you want to do and how much money you would like to make at your job. People with degrees get payed more on average and are more likely to get hired than those who don't. Just decide what you would want to do if your company went down the drain and then decide if you would get more money or would be more likely to get hired if you went to college before applying for the job.
Are you allowed to bring inventions to job interviews?
Registered Member #207
Joined: Sat Feb 18 2006, 05:14PM
Location:
Posts: 45
I think you're basing your decision on a lot of assumptions. And, from what I read, it seems like you're slightly biased towards skipping college and starting your own business.
There's nothing wrong with being entrepreneurial. But why can't it be a parallel process to you obtaining a degree? I feel that you're justified in your skepticism about the *value* of a college degree. But I think the marketplace still depicts an environment where an in-demand degree will put you ahead of the pack.
Also, in my experience, being able to design a pedestrian SMPS won't make you shine amongst other job candidates who have a degree. Really, unless your SMPS design is something revolutionary, it really probably isn't worth mentioning. Your value, as an employee, is determined by what you (as an individual) can bring to the pack. And, if your skills are in-demand, and rarely found, you can essentially set your price.
Another thing you may be overlooking is the fact that certain forms of work, in certain industries, may *require* a degree to achieve the level of professional accreditation that is mandatory to conduct work. For example, in some countries, an "engineer" is somebody who has a degree from an accredited university. And, you can't be an "engineer" or legally operate as one unless you have the credentials. And obviously, if you're not an "engineer", as outlined by law, you're not entitled to the compensation any average "engineer" would receive.
Starting a small business is always a challenge. And that challenge is especially great if your business model is structured around a bunch of generic services that don't really set you apart from your competition. Say you're producing some generic "Heath Kit" types of products. That is, middle-of-the-road kits that really anybody with a understanding of electronics can design and distribute. You are far more likely to encounter competition in the marketplace due to the ease at which your products can be produced and replicated. You probably wouldn't have any propriety technology, and you probably wouldn't have anything in your sale-able arsenal that couldn't be re-created by the competition for a relatively low initial capital expenditure. Business models like this usually resolve themselves as companies that are rushing to be "first out of the gate", or strive to shave every last penny off the cost of their kits to maintain profitability versus a low price-point. Because really, that's the only way that they can gain a competitive edge.
Alright, now. I've made a lot of assumptions on the sort of business you would be running, and the sorts of products/technologies you would be selling. But the crux of what I'm saying is this:
Would you rather be working 60 hours a week trying to shave 10 cents off your SMPS design, or spend 60 hours a week designing some new technology that gives you access to a niche (and which you can profit from heavily, accordingly).
Generally speaking, it's *easier* to make money on new and amazing products as opposed to recycling old or existing businesses. Unfortunately, to make new and amazing things these days, a degree (usually post graduate) is required. Not because it gives you a piece of paper, but because it fills you with information about your industry that allows you to contribute constructively. Don't get me wrong, you could be some "whiz" that doesn't *need* school to teach him/her these things. But, I'm just looking at things statistically. For every one "whiz" there's thousands of others who are not and thus need to seek more traditional methods.
Oh, and if you're going to go to all this effort: Make it for-profit. Unless you're some kind of bleeding-heart socialist that feels the world needs less capitalism. There's nothing wrong with being rewarded for your work. :)
Registered Member #3824
Joined: Sun Apr 10 2011, 08:29PM
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 54
deef wrote ...
I think you're basing your decision on a lot of assumptions. And, from what I read, it seems like you're slightly biased towards skipping college and starting your own business.
There's nothing wrong with being entrepreneurial. But why can't it be a parallel process to you obtaining a degree? I feel that you're justified in your skepticism about the *value* of a college degree. But I think the marketplace still depicts an environment where an in-demand degree will put you ahead of the pack.
Also, in my experience, being able to design a pedestrian SMPS won't make you shine amongst other job candidates who have a degree. Really, unless your SMPS design is something revolutionary, it really probably isn't worth mentioning. Your value, as an employee, is determined by what you (as an individual) can bring to the pack. And, if your skills are in-demand, and rarely found, you can essentially set your price.
Another thing you may be overlooking is the fact that certain forms of work, in certain industries, may *require* a degree to achieve the level of professional accreditation that is mandatory to conduct work. For example, in some countries, an "engineer" is somebody who has a degree from an accredited university. And, you can't be an "engineer" or legally operate as one unless you have the credentials. And obviously, if you're not an "engineer", as outlined by law, you're not entitled to the compensation any average "engineer" would receive.
Starting a small business is always a challenge. And that challenge is especially great if your business model is structured around a bunch of generic services that don't really set you apart from your competition. Say you're producing some generic "Heath Kit" types of products. That is, middle-of-the-road kits that really anybody with a understanding of electronics can design and distribute. You are far more likely to encounter competition in the marketplace due to the ease at which your products can be produced and replicated. You probably wouldn't have any propriety technology, and you probably wouldn't have anything in your sale-able arsenal that couldn't be re-created by the competition for a relatively low initial capital expenditure. Business models like this usually resolve themselves as companies that are rushing to be "first out of the gate", or strive to shave every last penny off the cost of their kits to maintain profitability versus a low price-point. Because really, that's the only way that they can gain a competitive edge.
Alright, now. I've made a lot of assumptions on the sort of business you would be running, and the sorts of products/technologies you would be selling. But the crux of what I'm saying is this:
Would you rather be working 60 hours a week trying to shave 10 cents off your SMPS design, or spend 60 hours a week designing some new technology that gives you access to a niche (and which you can profit from heavily, accordingly).
Generally speaking, it's *easier* to make money on new and amazing products as opposed to recycling old or existing businesses. Unfortunately, to make new and amazing things these days, a degree (usually post graduate) is required. Not because it gives you a piece of paper, but because it fills you with information about your industry that allows you to contribute constructively. Don't get me wrong, you could be some "whiz" that doesn't *need* school to teach him/her these things. But, I'm just looking at things statistically. For every one "whiz" there's thousands of others who are not and thus need to seek more traditional methods.
Oh, and if you're going to go to all this effort: Make it for-profit. Unless you're some kind of bleeding-heart socialist that feels the world needs less capitalism. There's nothing wrong with being rewarded for your work. :)
Well put. I graduated with an EE degree myself, and even though people may not *need* a degree to excel at what they do, it is MUCH easier to enter the workforce than trying to get your name out solely on a small business and a website. I do agree 100% that universities are greedy, money hungry institutions, but in the long run its definitely a solid investment. It also helps that you will have the best time of your life, getting drunk as hell and sleeping in til noon for four years. Student loan.. yeah, perpetual debt is just a part of our generation.
Registered Member #1225
Joined: Sat Jan 12 2008, 01:24AM
Location: Beaumont, Texas, USA
Posts: 2253
I agree with getting a degree. Not sure about where you live, but in Southeast Texas it is hard enough to get a job with a degree (my brother has had an I&E degree for almost 2 years and has filled out dozens of applications and been to more than half a dozen interviews that he felt went well and still works at a restaurant). Getting a job that will pay enough to keep you satisfied with your quality of life would be almost impossible to get without some degree around here.
I have never had a job, though i have filled in and turned in around 10 or more applications. That is probably typical for most places, but my point is still valid. I just got my GED scores a few days ago, and this December, i am going to go to Lamar IT and get a degree in I&E (4 semesters of the main courses but i bet it will take 1-2 semesters for the general education). I already know most of the stuff they will teach me in I&E, so it was a decision that was practically made for me. I&E is a good thing to do, there is a high demand for off-shore workers and people working in refineries etc. due to the fact that oil is pretty much the biggest industry in the world right now (next to Wal-Mart, of course!).
What if your company never took off? What would you do then? You would have no money to go to college in the first place, so you'd have to find a job that could either support you for the rest of your life or until you can get a better job, or a job that can support you, pay your way through college, and leave you enough time to do your classes. That would be a shitty position. My brother was in that position, on top of marital troubles, and even though he has finished his classes (with a 3.9 GPA i might add), he can still barely make it on his own.
Registered Member #1526
Joined: Mon Jun 09 2008, 12:56AM
Location: UK
Posts: 216
All I can say is that I didnt realise how little I really knew about my subject or how fragmented that knowledge was, until I got to university. Whether this will apply to you is another matter but it`s something to consider.
Registered Member #242
Joined: Thu Feb 23 2006, 11:37PM
Location: Erie PA
Posts: 210
Grenadier wrote ...
Some guy with a paper or some guy who pulled out a damn homemade smps?
Without that piece of paper, i doubt you'd even get the interview. Going to college shows that you are capable of learning.
Use your time in college to build cool stuff! 4 years of free access to lab equipment, and other cool stuff depending on where you go. Might even be able to make some money doing research projects for Professors. It'll still give you a pretty big edge over the other kids. I interviewed at Lincoln Electric (they build welders) a few years ago for their entry level program. It was a group interview, had dinner with the engineers, then had formal interviews the next day. The other 5 candidates were BS'ing about sports and other crap. I brought a few pictures of my OLCT. and spent the rest of the night talking about it. Turns out the VP of engineering was a TC nut too.
The student loans suck, but its just another bill to pay.
Registered Member #27
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
90% of all great ideas fail because the idea alone is just a small part of the picture. If you invent the computer too early you will get nothing but grief and if you invent it too late it is pointless. Ideas are also cheap, you can get them everywhere for free. It is the ability to do something with the ideas at the right time that is the key.
60 hours a week seems very low to bet your life on. Try 80 or 100 and slow down to 60 when you get everything running to plan.
And where is your Watson? It will be too much work for you to do alone, I know that you are not a perfect blend of ideas and ability to implement them. You would not be here asking questions if you were, you would be somewhere else getting things done.
As I said, ideas are so cheap that getting someone with lots of great ideas will just slow you down, find someone that is capable of getting things done efficiently. I have seen about 20 great projects like this implode and there was never a lack of good ideas and clever people, it always stranded on the ability to make a decision and get things done efficiently.
Registered Member #2893
Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242
My business model involves some services, and some of them have already been established but they are very pricey. However, I have an idea for three services that could be real moneymakers, and as far as I can see nobody else offers them. I also plan on breaking into the education market with fun science demos; have plenty of those in mind.
I suppose an SMPS isn't the best thing to bring to an interview. But here's the thing; I am not a person who is content with a 9 to 5 job --it just isn't for me. If my first business idea flops that's not really a huge deal, and I can recover from it and start with a different business, maybe something building museum displays or wiring model train sets. My passion is building things, and although there is a lot of headdesking when things don't work, I eventually get them working and in the end I'm proud of what I built. Money is not very important to me, and although making 60k a year being an analog engineer would be nice, I would end up going mad if I had to design and debug circuits every day. Circuit design is only part of a project, and it is not the best part I might add. I wouldn't want it to be my entire career.
Of course my business would require a lot of circuit design, but it would only be a small part of the process since once something works, I can go and design the non-circuits part of the product and then produce it. A balance of circuit design and other stuff would keep me sane.
And with my own business I can run the office any way I want, and of course it will be run like That is one of my real motivators; to have fun during the whole process.
The reason a flopped business is not a huge deal is I'm not taking out any loans to go about this; I am a surplus rather than a deficit spender. My philosophy is if I can't afford it I sure as hell am not using someone else's money to get it. This holds true for a car, or even a home for that matter. I will gladly live in an apartment, or even a school bus turned into an RV instead of a mortgaged home. After all a school bus costs $2,000 used, and all one would need to do is rip out the seats and furnish it to make a nice RV. Solar cells + AGM batteries + Inverter gives me power, a wood stove gives me heat etc. I'm not like most other people, I'm content with simplicites and anything I can't afford I will build. AM radio is my TV, AMVETs is my high end outfitter.
But just like with my projects, if this doesn't work I'll make it work. I don't want all the fun to start when I retire!
And of course if my business is a success there is a job always open for one of my 4hv friends.
As for business + college; it just can't happen. A business would take my full devotion, and if I was to take out a loan any profits couldn't be used to expand the business or hire employees!
Gah 2 ninja posts!
@Bjorn
Watson... I'm working on that. I know very well I can't do this alone, and I have one loyal friend who will likely be my watson. He's across the country though, but that said it's still just a plane flight away. I also know that ideas are only part of the problem, and after all genius is 1 inspiration and 99 perspiration.
@JRZ, I have all the tools I need, and I'm always welcome at my old school's chop shop (just not in the summer).
I have nothing to lose by attempting this. No family to feed, no debts to pay, and it'll be pretty easy to tell if things aren't working, and with no business loans it's not hard to just abandon the entire thing. That said, I'll try my best to make it work.
[Edit: Remember to edit your previous post instead of double posting]
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.
Life choices
