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Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
While I'm not completely skeptical about the claims made regarding cold fusion (Experimental research into muon catalysed fusion using solid or liquid deuterium and tritium has been successfully demonstrated, and there are plenty of 'background' muons about, for example), I wasn't aware that Rossi et al. were claiming that this is a cold fusion process.
The claimed amounts of energy produced are several orders of magnitude greater than other 'cold fusioneers' have claimed, and are more akin to the amounts of energy produced from hydrogen fuel cells.
Until more is known about this process we can only speculate.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Ash Small wrote ...
While I'm not completely skeptical about the claims made regarding cold fusion (Experimental research into muon catalysed fusion using solid or liquid deuterium and tritium has been successfully demonstrated, and there are plenty of 'background' muons about, for example), I wasn't aware that Rossi et al. were claiming that this is a cold fusion process.
The claimed amounts of energy produced are several orders of magnitude greater than other 'cold fusioneers' have claimed, and are more akin to the amounts of energy produced from hydrogen fuel cells.
Until more is known about this process we can only speculate.
More is known - much more - so we need not speculate on Rossi's membership of the 'cold fusion' caucus.
There is a picture of a Rossi contraption on this 'cold fusion' cheer-leader site:
Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society
PS: I think the journalistic term 'cold fusion' most unfortunate, because it makes assumptions not made in 'low energy nuclear reaction.'
Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Proud Mary wrote ...
. More is known - much more - so we need not speculate on Rossi's membership of the 'cold fusion' caucus.
There is a picture of a Rossi contraption on this 'cold fusion' cheer-leader site:
Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society
PS: I think the journalistic term 'cold fusion' most unfortunate, because it makes assumptions not made in 'low energy nuclear reaction.'
I'm sure you'll agree, PM, that what is posted on that site is hardly 'scientific proof'.
I also prefer the term LENR, but 'cold fusion' is the more popular name. I was just trying to keep things simple.
That article states that there is a 'resistor' wrapped around the copper pipe containing the water. It's not impossible that electricity flowing through that 'resistor', possibly produced by fuel cell technology, is responsible for heating the water. There are many things still to be explained.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Ash Small wrote ...
Proud Mary wrote ...
. More is known - much more - so we need not speculate on Rossi's membership of the 'cold fusion' caucus.
There is a picture of a Rossi contraption on this 'cold fusion' cheer-leader site:
Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society
PS: I think the journalistic term 'cold fusion' most unfortunate, because it makes assumptions not made in 'low energy nuclear reaction.'
I'm sure you'll agree, PM, that what is posted on that site is hardly 'scientific proof'.
I also prefer the term LENR, but 'cold fusion' is the more popular name. I was just trying to keep things simple.
That article states that there is a 'resistor' wrapped around the copper pipe containing the water. It's not impossible that electricity flowing through that 'resistor', possibly produced by fuel cell technology, is responsible for heating the water. There are many things still to be explained.
I didn't call the site a 'cheer-leader' effort without reason, Ash - but it helps to locate Rossi in the 'cold fusion' domain for those unfamilar with the long history - dating back to Flesichmann & Pons (1986) - of experiments loading metals with hydrogen and its isotopes.
Registered Member #1321
Joined: Sat Feb 16 2008, 03:22AM
Location:
Posts: 843
wrote ...
That article states that there is a 'resistor' wrapped around the copper pipe containing the water. It's not impossible that electricity flowing through that 'resistor', possibly produced by fuel cell technology, is responsible for heating the water. There are many things still to be explained.
I think it's already generally accepted that there is no conventional chemical/electrochemical reaction that could be responsible for all the energy apparently being produced under the circumstances; so it boils down to either some kind of really clever fraud...or it's real.
Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
jpsmith123 wrote ...
. I think it's already generally accepted that there is no conventional chemical/electrochemical reaction that could be responsible for all the energy apparently being produced under the circumstances; so it boils down to either some kind of really clever fraud...or it's real.
4.69 kW is around 6.3 horsepower.
The hydrogen fuel cells currently being used in cars produce considerably more than this from fuel cells not a great deal larger. I'd argue that conventional fuel cell technology of the type that has been around for 150 years or so can easily produce energy in these quantities from similar sized devices.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Ash Small wrote ...
jpsmith123 wrote ...
. I think it's already generally accepted that there is no conventional chemical/electrochemical reaction that could be responsible for all the energy apparently being produced under the circumstances; so it boils down to either some kind of really clever fraud...or it's real.
4.69 kW is around 6.3 horsepower.
The hydrogen fuel cells currently being used in cars produce considerably more than this from fuel cells not a great deal larger. I'd argue that conventional fuel cell technology of the type that has been around for 150 years or so can easily produce energy in these quantities from similar sized devices.
I wonder if you have not somehow missed the point, Ash. Central to Rossi's claim - as with the early 'cold fusion' claims - is that the output of his contraption is greater than the input. If the output could be proven beyond all doubt to exceed the input by a single femtofemtojoule, we would have a revolution indeed - 'free energy' - the pipe dream of the modern alchemist.
Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Proud Mary wrote ...
Ash Small wrote ...
jpsmith123 wrote ...
. I think it's already generally accepted that there is no conventional chemical/electrochemical reaction that could be responsible for all the energy apparently being produced under the circumstances; so it boils down to either some kind of really clever fraud...or it's real.
4.69 kW is around 6.3 horsepower.
The hydrogen fuel cells currently being used in cars produce considerably more than this from fuel cells not a great deal larger. I'd argue that conventional fuel cell technology of the type that has been around for 150 years or so can easily produce energy in these quantities from similar sized devices.
I wonder if you have not somehow missed the point, Ash. Central to Rossi's claim - as with the early 'cold fusion' claims - is that the output of his contraption is greater than the input. If the output could be proven beyond all doubt to exceed the input by a single femtofemtojoule, we would have a revolution indeed - 'free energy' - the pipe dream of the modern alchemist.
Rossi's contraption does consume hydrogen, though. The recent article you posted elsewhere said there was a hydrogen tank connected to the apparatus.
His contraption only produces a few kilowatts of power.
Fleichman and Pon's device produced miniscule amounts of power, but this was put down to 'experimental error' by most people.
The patent system works retrospectively, Rossi only needs to prove that he did it first in order to prove he owns the rights.
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Ash Small wrote ...
Proud Mary wrote ...
Ash Small wrote ...
jpsmith123 wrote ...
. I think it's already generally accepted that there is no conventional chemical/electrochemical reaction that could be responsible for all the energy apparently being produced under the circumstances; so it boils down to either some kind of really clever fraud...or it's real.
4.69 kW is around 6.3 horsepower.
The hydrogen fuel cells currently being used in cars produce considerably more than this from fuel cells not a great deal larger. I'd argue that conventional fuel cell technology of the type that has been around for 150 years or so can easily produce energy in these quantities from similar sized devices.
I wonder if you have not somehow missed the point, Ash. Central to Rossi's claim - as with the early 'cold fusion' claims - is that the output of his contraption is greater than the input. If the output could be proven beyond all doubt to exceed the input by a single femtofemtojoule, we would have a revolution indeed - 'free energy' - the pipe dream of the modern alchemist.
Rossi's contraption does consume hydrogen, though. The recent article you posted elsewhere said there was a hydrogen tank connected to the apparatus.
His contraption only produces a few kilowatts of power.
Fleichman and Pon's device produced miniscule amounts of power, but this was put down to 'experimental error' by most people.
The patent system works retrospectively, Rossi only needs to prove that he did it first in order to prove he owns the rights.
But we will see, eventually.
It doesn't matter whether Rossi puts hydrogen or steam coal or dried cow pats into his contraption. The scientific controversy - perhaps better 'outright rejection' - over Rossi's claims are that they would violate the Law of the Conservation of Energy - namely, the First Law of Thermodynamics. This is why so many scientists refuse even to look at the experimental results of LENR research. Anything, they assert, that is contrary to these most fundamental of all the Laws can only be due to error, or what is politely called 'scientific misconduct.'
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Anybody following this "energy catalyzer" invention thing?
