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creating tritium

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magnet18

Thu Apr 28 2011, 08:55PM

Registered Member #3766 Joined: Sun Mar 20 2011, 05:39AM
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So, if nitrogen plus neutron makes tritium and carbon, why couldn't tritium be made with americium?

Daedronus

Fri Apr 29 2011, 12:18PM

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Isn't it hydrogen + neutron = deuterium + neutron = tritium?

I think it will be hard to split (fission) nitrogen atoms.

hboy007

Fri Apr 29 2011, 06:31PM

Registered Member #1667 Joined: Sat Aug 30 2008, 09:57PM
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see

the most common way tritium is generated is in my opinion through neutron capture by DHO or D2O in water cooled reactors. Thus, I don't think it is reasonable to generate tritium with smoke detectors (if that is what you had in mind) especially because the spontaneous fission decay channel of Am241 is extremely minute.

See

to find out the elements that have strong enough beta decays to expel a neutron.

What do you have in mind with Am241?

GluD

Fri Apr 29 2011, 10:16PM

Registered Member #1221 Joined: Wed Jan 09 2008, 06:17PM
Location: Odense, Denmark
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Perhaps a silly question, but is this not physics rather than chemistry?

In any case I dont understand your question at all. Please write more than just a single line... How should we answer your question if we dont understand what you want to do.

Why would nitrogen + neutron = tritium + carbon? (with my current knowlegde I dont think that is possiable)

With my modest knowlegde of neutrons, it seems that when speaking of neutrons it is very important to be specific about what energies the neutrons have as that will decide what happens when it, for example, strikes a nitrogen atom. If the neutron is very energitic it may 'scatter' the nucleus it hits, if it has low energy it may be 'absorbed' by the nucleus.
Also you have to consider the cross sections of the atom you wish to 'hit' with neutrons, maybe it is too 'small' for any reasonable 'yield'.

If someone has a better understanding of these matters please correct if me I am mistaken, I only spend a little time reading about this a while back, it is very interesting reading but also challeneging.

magnet18

Sat Apr 30 2011, 12:30AM

Registered Member #3766 Joined: Sun Mar 20 2011, 05:39AM
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Sorry, made sense in my head, I read on wikipedia here-

wrote ...
Tritium occurs naturally due to cosmic rays interacting with atmospheric gases. In the most important reaction for natural production, a fast neutron (which must have energy greater than 4.0 MeV[10]) interacts with atmospheric nitrogen:
14________1__________12________3
7N ___+___0n___â†’ ____6C__+ ___1T

and americium emits a neutron of 2-10 MeV ,so I was thinking that I could make tritium with smoke detectors, but if it was that easy, people would be doing it, so I was wondering why it wasn't that easy.

And it's both chemistry and physics, like batteries are electricity and chemistry, and theres no physics section here, so I put it here. Radioactive decay is covered in our chem books.

GluD

Sat Apr 30 2011, 11:16PM

Registered Member #1221 Joined: Wed Jan 09 2008, 06:17PM
Location: Odense, Denmark
Posts: 196

Oh so you want to 'smash' up the nitrogen atom with an energetic neutron thus producing radioactive carbon which then decays to tritium? Sounds strange that carbon would decay to tritium though.

Based on your first post I arrivied at the (incorrect?) conclusion that you wanted to do something with a neutron and some nitrogen which would somehow magicaly produce tritium and carbon.. which I dont think is possiable.

Smashing up the nitrogen atom to produce carbon sounds plausiable although you should really look up the isotopes and decay data etc to verify it.

Also I thought Americium was emitting Alpha particles and ocassionaly Gamma rays, not neutrons?
It also 'surpise' me that you say the neutrons will have energies ranging from 2-10MeV, as I was under the impression that decay energies was well defined?
(it seems rather important to clearify the actual energy of the neutrons because if it is less than 4MeV it wont 'work' acording to the stuff you quoted)

I think you'd be better off just to put this 'project' down already. How would you for example collect the tritium assuming you were able to make some?
If you insist on contiuening this endavour I shall suggest you to use the method suggested also by Daedronus earlier in this thread, preferable starting with deuterium if you can obtain that.

There are also various safety issues, one of which is the fact that tritium is a radioactive gas. A gas leakage is obivously much more trouble than if it were solids, or even liquid.

Are you capable of undertaking the strict safety requirements of a project such as this? To be honest I dont think most of us hobby people are.

magnet18

Sun May 01 2011, 01:22AM

Registered Member #3766 Joined: Sun Mar 20 2011, 05:39AM
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Not exactly, the neutron smashes into the nitrogen which smashes part into standard carbon 12 and tritium

And youre right, americium is an alpha emiter, I was thinking the radioactive boyscout where he put beryllium in front of it, this absorbs the alpha particle and emits a high energy neutron (high enough to convert thorium to uranium)

In any case, no, I can't do it safely, and I don't even plan on trying. But someday, I'll be able to...

I just put this out because it seemed really simple, I didn't figure it would actually be that simple since if it was people would be doing it.

Even if I did want to try I couldn't, my dad won't even let me buy tritium, let alone make it...

Hey, what if you filled a vial with nitrogen and covered the end with beryllium foil? Then the foil could be put directly against the alpha emission source, when the tritium had been made you thread the cap on the vial over the foil, no gas escapes?
(this is all theoretical)
Of course, you're still left with a steaming pile of americium...
and the need for finances for beryllium (more expensive than titanium)

Adam Munich

Sun May 01 2011, 02:36AM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
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Posts: 2242

I wonder if a farnsworth fusor is capable of producing tritium, even in minute quantities...

magnet18

Sun May 01 2011, 02:52AM

Registered Member #3766 Joined: Sun Mar 20 2011, 05:39AM
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Posts: 624

I would think that you would just need to place the proper material in it and then insert hydrogen into the fusor...

... and you just added a new project to my list...

[EDIT]
patent for one of his fusors, I saw the word tritium at the bottom of column 9

Bored Chemist

Sun May 01 2011, 12:07PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

Grenadier wrote ...

I wonder if a farnsworth fusor is capable of producing tritium, even in minute quantities...

Yes
Most of the discussions of fusors I have seen talk about fusing deuterium. There are two routes for that reaction and one of them makes tritium.
Incidentally, this isn't chemistry but I don't think that matters much.
In principle, you could get the Am from a smoke detector, wrap it in Be to make a neutron source and then let those neutrons plough into nitrogen to make tritium. The yield would be practically zero.

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