"The most wealthy of us can afford to pay a little more" / General Chatting / Forums

Forums

4hv.org :: Forums :: General Chatting

« Previous topic | Next topic »

"The most wealthy of us can afford to pay a little more"

1 2 next

Move Thread

LAN_403

Adam Munich

Wed Apr 13 2011, 08:17PM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242

So obama just made a speech and it looks like he wants to tax millionaires even more. Is it just me, or does anyone else realize that this is a terrible idea? IIRC only 50% of the us population pays federal taxes, and of that 50% 37% of the taxes are paid by millionaires, and that is 40% of their entire income!

Now increasing this tax is a terrible idea, and here is my rationale. The millionaires are the ones that create jobs for the poor, and if you take money away from them they don't spend money expanding their businesses and creating more jobs for the poor. If they do decide to expand their businesses, where do you think would be the most logical place to expand? Asia of course, because people in china don't expect the money that US workers get, and there is pretty much no unionisation in china. More about the unions some other time, as outsourcing is two part problem (unions and taxes). But, here in america we have that 50% that don't pay taxes, yet those people still have the ability to vote. Therefore they vote in the people that want to tax these millionaires, people like obama.

Give money to the rich and they make jobs for the poor, give money to the poor and they go buy a pair of new china made shoes at walmart. The reason the rich are rich is because they good with their money, and the reason the poor are poor is because they make poor monetary decisions. Sure you could give "stimulus checks" to the poor like obama did, and guess where all that money went? China.

Yet these politicians are only in office to make a buck, so if they say they are going to "tax the rich and give to the poor" you can bet your ass they are going to get voted in.

*puts on flameproof suit*

Ash Small

Wed Apr 13 2011, 09:45PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Where was your flameproof suit made, US or China?

Patrick

Wed Apr 13 2011, 10:12PM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

I have to aggree with grenidier, our politicians (boths D's and R's) are in it to make themselves better off and dont care how much damage they do to the american people.

Adam Munich

Thu Apr 14 2011, 01:08AM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242

The problem is patrick much of the american populous is uneducated, and these uneducated people don't see through the facade of a campaign these politicians put up.

It's a shame that those people that are most qualified to run our country are sweeping alleys and cutting hair.

Patrick

Thu Apr 14 2011, 03:10AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

Grenadier wrote ...

The problem is patrick much of the american populous is uneducated, and these uneducated people don't see through the facade of a campaign these politicians put up.

It's a shame that those people that are most qualified to run our country are sweeping alleys and cutting hair.

Yes, i think so too.

Pinky's Brain

Thu Apr 14 2011, 10:59AM

Registered Member #2901 Joined: Thu Jun 03 2010, 01:25PM
Location:
Posts: 837

Grenadier wrote ...
Now increasing this tax is a terrible idea, and here is my rationale. The millionaires are the ones that create jobs for the poor

Entrepreneurs create jobs, there is some overlap between the ownership class and entrepreneurs ... but they are not the same. Entrepreneurs need capital and demand. The ownership class can provide capital, but not demand.

wrote ...
if you take money away from them they don't spend money expanding their businesses and creating more jobs for the poor.

They are not doing that now, because there is a demand gap ... a demand gap caused by the ever decreasing value of labour in the first world (due to automation and globalisation, only private and sovereign debt increases have kept consumption and median wages level over the last 30 years).

wrote ...
If they do decide to expand their businesses, where do you think would be the most logical place to expand?

Which just puts further downward pressure on wages locally, further increasing the demand gap, further damaging the economy.

The problem of the modern age is that median value of labour is falling faster than productivity is making products cheaper (because natural resource limitations are an ever bigger part of the price, prices can not be driven to zero because of productivity increases ... not unless we invent free energy and some way to perfectly recycle waste). There is an inherent deflationary bias to modern capitalism ... it no longer raises all boats like it did in the past. It drops the median and raises the top.

wrote ...
Give money to the rich and they make jobs for the poor

They make jobs at subsistence wages if they can get away with it and no more.

wrote ...
give money to the poor

Heh yeah, or put melanin in their milk.

wrote ...
The reason the rich are rich is because they good with their money, and the reason the poor are poor is because they make poor monetary decisions.

Social mobility is at an all time low in the US ... sure there are always anecdotal success stories, but statistically this doesn't bear out. The US is becoming a dynastic and caste based society.

wrote ...
Sure you could give "stimulus checks" to the poor like obama did, and guess where all that money went? China.

Not all of it, increasing distribution costs mean a lot of production is moving more local again, of course only as long as there is actual local demand.

Dr. Who

Thu Apr 14 2011, 06:14PM

Registered Member #326 Joined: Sat Mar 18 2006, 01:12PM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 66

Pinky's Brain wrote ...

They are not doing that now, because there is a demand gap ... a demand gap caused by the ever decreasing value of labour in the first world (due to automation and globalisation, only private and sovereign debt increases have kept consumption and median wages level over the last 30 years).

Ironically much of the West's government and private debt has been bought up by China, so we in the West are now effectively borrowing from the Chinese to pay for all those cheap consumer goods we import from them. In spite of buying all those bucketloads of consumer stuff from them, I still don't think most Westerners really understand just how fundamentally the balance of economic power is shifting to China, Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea.

Pinky's Brain

Thu Apr 14 2011, 07:09PM

Registered Member #2901 Joined: Thu Jun 03 2010, 01:25PM
Location:
Posts: 837

To say we are borrowing from them is not exactly accurate, their government is accumulating piles of our debt to fuel more outsourcing so they get more factories and knowhow.

Which is why I think it would be perfectly morally justifiable for the west to soft default, which is what a combination of QE and stimulus effectively does. If we make good on our debt we will essentially have paid double ...

Nah

Thu Apr 14 2011, 09:31PM

Registered Member #3567 Joined: Mon Jan 03 2011, 10:49PM
Location: USA, 1960s
Posts: 260

Come one guys!

Even as a Korean, this reminds me of the Cold war. Remeber the theory that all Russian kids were so much smarter than Us kids? Let's see Russia now! As good old Winston said, "amercains allways do the right thing, after they've tried everything else."

Mike

Sat Apr 16 2011, 09:26PM

Registered Member #58 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:40AM
Location: Tri-Cities, Washington, US
Posts: 317

America, where people think the middle class should do their part and take a tax increase while the thought of millionaires doing the same is socialism.

Also in regards to your argument about a tax increase causing millionaires to invest in China, I disagree because honestly they will invest there no matter what, it's cheaper. There are few people with lots of wealth and power that place nationalism above the ability to increase their power and wealth.

1 2 next

Moderator(s): Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Dave Billington, Bjørn, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob