If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.
Special Thanks To:
Aaron Holmes
Aaron Wheeler
Adam Horden
Alan Scrimgeour
Andre
Andrew Haynes
Anonymous000
asabase
Austin Weil
barney
Barry
Bert Hickman
Bill Kukowski
Blitzorn
Brandon Paradelas
Bruce Bowling
BubeeMike
Byong Park
Cesiumsponge
Chris F.
Chris Hooper
Corey Worthington
Derek Woodroffe
Dalus
Dan Strother
Daniel Davis
Daniel Uhrenholt
datasheetarchive
Dave Billington
Dave Marshall
David F.
Dennis Rogers
drelectrix
Dr. John Gudenas
Dr. Spark
E.TexasTesla
eastvoltresearch
Eirik Taylor
Erik Dyakov
Erlend^SE
Finn Hammer
Firebug24k
GalliumMan
Gary Peterson
George Slade
GhostNull
Gordon Mcknight
Graham Armitage
Grant
GreySoul
Henry H
IamSmooth
In memory of Leo Powning
Jacob Cash
James Howells
James Pawson
Jeff Greenfield
Jeff Thomas
Jesse Frost
Jim Mitchell
jlr134
Joe Mastroianni
John Forcina
John Oberg
John Willcutt
Jon Newcomb
klugesmith
Leslie Wright
Lutz Hoffman
Mads Barnkob
Martin King
Mats Karlsson
Matt Gibson
Matthew Guidry
mbd
Michael D'Angelo
Mikkel
mileswaldron
mister_rf
Neil Foster
Nick de Smith
Nick Soroka
nicklenorp
Nik
Norman Stanley
Patrick Coleman
Paul Brodie
Paul Jordan
Paul Montgomery
Ped
Peter Krogen
Peter Terren
PhilGood
Richard Feldman
Robert Bush
Royce Bailey
Scott Fusare
Scott Newman
smiffy
Stella
Steven Busic
Steve Conner
Steve Jones
Steve Ward
Sulaiman
Thomas Coyle
Thomas A. Wallace
Thomas W
Timo
Torch
Ulf Jonsson
vasil
Vaxian
vladi mazzilli
wastehl
Weston
William Kim
William N.
William Stehl
Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Registered Member #3040
Joined: Tue Jul 27 2010, 03:15PM
Location: South of London. UK
Posts: 237
Ash Small wrote ...
'People have been flaming Tepco,' . 'But the staff of Tepco have refused to flee, and continue to work even at the peril of their own lives. Please stop attacking us.'
I don't think anyone is attacking the workers! But I wonder if the Managing director of Tepco is on site putting his life at risk alongside his loyal workers? Somehow I think not.
Registered Member #2431
Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
I dont blame the Japanese govenrment in their crisis handling efforts, nor the workers on scene. I do blame the upper management, of TEPCO, there holding back on much. I know most lay people wont see it this way.
Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Patrick wrote ...
I dont blame the Japanese govenrment in their crisis handling efforts, nor the workers on scene. I do blame the upper management, of TEPCO, there holding back on much. I know most lay people wont see it this way.
If the spent fuel pool at reactor 4 goes critical I'd blame the IAEA for relaxing the rules, and allowing more fuel to be stored than the pools were originally designed for. (see Chris's earlier post)
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
So-called 'news management' has become very evident in the coverage of this story.
The re-appearance of the long discredited 'safe' exposure level doctrine, and the willingness of the corporate media to report what they're told re doses and dose rates only strengthens the case for bringing a prompt end to this dangerous and profoundly anti-social industry.
Registered Member #2431
Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
Ash Small wrote ...
If the spent fuel pool at reactor 4 goes critical I'd blame the IAEA for relaxing the rules, and allowing more fuel to be stored than the pools were originally designed for. (see Chris's earlier post)
Yes, I will agree with the failing of the IAEA as well. If low density storage had been afirmed Instead of the high density storage, then the cooling pool fire would not be a possibility. As air cooling would be suffcient.
Proud Mary, I agree with your point regarding the idiot talking head media. Natural gas here in the US would be more than suffcient for our quality of life, making nuclear power unneccassary. But the eco-maniacs dont like Natural gas either.
... not Russel! Registered Member #1
Joined: Thu Jan 26 2006, 12:18AM
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1052
Patrick wrote ...
Proud Mary, I agree with your point regarding the idiot talking head media. Natural gas here in the US would be more than suffcient for our quality of life, making nuclear power unneccassary. But the eco-maniacs dont like Natural gas either.
I don't think it's necessarily an eco-maniac position to assume that both the carbon-sinking capacity of the earth and the total amount of natural gas reserves is a number lower than infinity. Additionally, drilling for, recovering, and moving around large quantities of liquefied natural gas has its own set of risks and costs. However, given that the nuclear industry is very likely done for good now in most nations (they'll be around a while longer, but like Dr Spark said, almost certainly no new reactors will be licensed in the US), I will certainly take LNG electricity over coal, or no electricity at all. I would just note that it's important to realize that any move toward a non-renewable fuel source should be considered a temporary solution. If we become complacent with a small number of easily-manipulated energy sources, we may soon find ourselves facing electricity hikes that rival the current gasoline price hikes.
Registered Member #65
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155
20-20 Hindsight is ultimately a pointless endeavor.
Self-sealing bunkers were around before the first H-bomb was invented.
And unlike most conventional control systems/robots, the pyrotechnic fasteners and collapsible roofs work just fine in higher radiation or even power failures...
Ask anyone who has seen a James Bond film, as even the villains usually have a Dead Mans Switch.
Registered Member #2431
Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
Chris Russell wrote ...
I don't think it's necessarily an eco-maniac position to assume that both the carbon-sinking capacity of the earth and the total amount of natural gas reserves is a number lower than infinity. Additionally, drilling for, recovering, and moving around large quantities of liquefied natural gas has its own set of risks and costs. However, given that the nuclear industry is very likely done for good now in most nations (they'll be around a while longer, but like Dr Spark said, almost certainly no new reactors will be licensed in the US), I will certainly take LNG electricity over coal, or no electricity at all. I would just note that it's important to realize that any move toward a non-renewable fuel source should be considered a temporary solution. If we become complacent with a small number of easily-manipulated energy sources, we may soon find ourselves facing electricity hikes that rival the current gasoline price hikes.
I did not mean to imply that natural gas be an infinite duration source. merely a 40-70 year "crutch" between now and when nuclear fusion is perfected.
EDIT: I would also like to say how stupid corn-ethanol is. We cant feed the people on the planet now... as is. and these Washington DC idiots want to turn the most valuable fuel source, difficult to grow, resource intensive fuel ...HUMAN FOOD... into something we burn by the gallon !?
Registered Member #75
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 09:30AM
Location: Montana, USA
Posts: 711
Patrick wrote ...
I did not mean to imply that natural gas be an infinite duration source. merely a 40-70 year "crutch" between now and when nuclear fusion is perfected.
Funny, that's what they said about fusion 50 years ago. And never mind that the really bad stuff, Iodine and Cesium, are created by neutron radiation so a failing fusion plant would spew out just as much as Fukushima may be doing now.
One a more serious not though, has any information been released if sea water is still being supplied to the cores or if the increases in radiation have made this impossible? I made a back of an envelope calculation that makes it look very scary for the water supply to fail: According to and other sources the cores are, and will for a few more weeks or so, producing heat at a rate of about 10MW. It's hard to judge what the volume of water in the pressure vessels is, but from the fuel rod length of 5m and a core assembly that seems roughly cubical in shape, there must be about 120 m^3 cooling water. Using basically the same latent heat calculations as Chris with a latent heat of ~2MJ/l to boil off the water, the whole volume would take 240GJ to boil off. At a rate of 10MW this is barely 7 hours.
It seems that if the water supply is interrupted only briefly, fuel rods will be exposed and heat up, releasing more hydrogen. Now that the reactor vessels are already structurally damaged and open to air, more hydrogen explosions could occur, potentially spitting out the whole core into the surrounding area.
An equally worrying prospect is: what is happening with all the water 20.000 l or 5000 gallons per hour that are circulated between the compromised fuel rods and turned into steam? There is no way that all this steam can be quenched in the torus, so the plumes of smoke on the webcam are in all likelihood water that has been circulating the core, picking up all the nasty isotopes on the way. Are the radiation readings in line with this, or is there an error in my line of though?
Registered Member #2431
Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639
Dr. Shark wrote ...
...And never mind that the really bad stuff, Iodine and Cesium, are created by neutron radiation so a failing fusion plant would spew out just as much as Fukushima may be doing now.
I did'nt know that, shit.
EDIT: Im not sure that a transmutation path exists for light elemental neutron emission involving the metallic elements of a toroidal wall (presumably heavier atoms in the reactor wall) such that Cesium/iodine production would even be possible in trace quantities. Can others comment?
EDIT: I wonder if neutron nuclear cross section of fission reactor metals, vs fusion reactor metals, would be different in terms of half-lives. Perhaps Vanadium instead of Chromium? Like hundreds of years versus several thousand years.
In any case, I too have wondered where all this sea water must be going. It cant all be recirculating.
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.
Nuclear events taking place in Japan.
