How to neutralize FeCl3
GODSFUSION, Sun Apr 16 2006, 08:02AMHow do i go about neutralizing my used ferric chloride. Or where do i go to dispose of it?
- wayne -
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Apr 16 2006, 06:57PM
There are a lot of different ways you can do this, most of which create a huge mess. That's why I would recommend keeping an etch-tank if you etch a lot of circuit boards.
1. Bicarbonate from pool supply in 1lb. baggies. This makes a pretty big mess, but if you use enough bicarbonate, then it becomes a DRY mess and you can throw away the Iron Hydroxide because its about as harmless as rust.
2. Red Devil Lye. This has no Aluminum chunks in it, you could even use it to make developer insted of buying the expensive stuff. I think the molarity of the developer is 1.8, but id have to get back to you on that one.
Anyways, the Lye will make an Aqueous mess which you can flush, just don't spill on the carpet when in transit.
I have done both of these. Again, I think getting an etch bucket will save you a big headache.
I return used etchant right back into the tank with no ill effects.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Apr 16 2006, 06:57PM
There are a lot of different ways you can do this, most of which create a huge mess. That's why I would recommend keeping an etch-tank if you etch a lot of circuit boards.
1. Bicarbonate from pool supply in 1lb. baggies. This makes a pretty big mess, but if you use enough bicarbonate, then it becomes a DRY mess and you can throw away the Iron Hydroxide because its about as harmless as rust.
2. Red Devil Lye. This has no Aluminum chunks in it, you could even use it to make developer insted of buying the expensive stuff. I think the molarity of the developer is 1.8, but id have to get back to you on that one.
Anyways, the Lye will make an Aqueous mess which you can flush, just don't spill on the carpet when in transit.
I have done both of these. Again, I think getting an etch bucket will save you a big headache.
I return used etchant right back into the tank with no ill effects.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Wolfram, Sun Apr 16 2006, 11:37PM
Regarding what concentration of NaOH to use for developing; 20g per liter of water seems to be most common.
Wolfram, Sun Apr 16 2006, 11:37PM
Regarding what concentration of NaOH to use for developing; 20g per liter of water seems to be most common.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
GODSFUSION, Mon Apr 17 2006, 04:08AM
well i have a 5 gallon bucket with a fishtank airator and tank heter ijn it, part way down i put bolts through the sides to hold the airator and heater uprite & in place on a circular piece of plywood. Off the plywood is a clothes hanger witch i hook the PCB to and just lower it all into the FeCL3. I got it used (the FeCL3) from a local highschool that was getting rid of it. they said they used it for chemistry "art" projects.
About the Bicarbonate, do i just mix it in untill it all becomes dry...? Can i flush the dry stuff down the toilet?
- Wayne -
- Wayne -
GODSFUSION, Mon Apr 17 2006, 04:08AM
well i have a 5 gallon bucket with a fishtank airator and tank heter ijn it, part way down i put bolts through the sides to hold the airator and heater uprite & in place on a circular piece of plywood. Off the plywood is a clothes hanger witch i hook the PCB to and just lower it all into the FeCL3. I got it used (the FeCL3) from a local highschool that was getting rid of it. they said they used it for chemistry "art" projects.
About the Bicarbonate, do i just mix it in untill it all becomes dry...? Can i flush the dry stuff down the toilet?
- Wayne -
- Wayne -
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Simon, Mon Apr 17 2006, 06:06AM
The real nasty for disposing of spent etchant is Cu2+. If you check MSDSs, most copper compounds (like copper sulfate) are labelled "Harmful to the environment", which means you shouldn't just tip them down the sink.
I'm not sure about the solution to the problem. I've still got my etchant in the bottles it came in.
Simon, Mon Apr 17 2006, 06:06AM
The real nasty for disposing of spent etchant is Cu2+. If you check MSDSs, most copper compounds (like copper sulfate) are labelled "Harmful to the environment", which means you shouldn't just tip them down the sink.
I'm not sure about the solution to the problem. I've still got my etchant in the bottles it came in.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Mon Apr 17 2006, 08:14AM
Don't flush the dry mass down the toilet, it will clog your pipes.
The Copper Chloride is known to be toxic, although I had to dig through one of my older chemistry books before I found it stated. Copper Compounds are stated in my Dangerous Properties book to be a slight to moderate risk when exposed. However, it does describe some very painful poisoning symptoms.
Bolts in the bucket, I think that's a very bad way to do things. You can have some creepage of the etchant through the holes, and the bolts unless Nylon will be destroyed shortly.
Welding the plastic would have been a much better option, and if that's not possible, a self jigging wood circle would have been my second option. But since you already have it, give it a shot and see what really happens.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Mon Apr 17 2006, 08:14AM
Don't flush the dry mass down the toilet, it will clog your pipes.
The Copper Chloride is known to be toxic, although I had to dig through one of my older chemistry books before I found it stated. Copper Compounds are stated in my Dangerous Properties book to be a slight to moderate risk when exposed. However, it does describe some very painful poisoning symptoms.
Bolts in the bucket, I think that's a very bad way to do things. You can have some creepage of the etchant through the holes, and the bolts unless Nylon will be destroyed shortly.
Welding the plastic would have been a much better option, and if that's not possible, a self jigging wood circle would have been my second option. But since you already have it, give it a shot and see what really happens.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
..., Mon Apr 17 2006, 10:40PM
Not to sound like an envirmentalist, but my mom works at the treatment plant so...
Please don't dump it down the drains. Heavy metals do not get taken out in normal treatment plants, and goes pretty much strait through to the outfall (depends on where you live, could be ocean, river, irrigation, groundwater, or even drinking water). Sure that one bucket you have might not make a diference, but...
If you live in the US, you should take it to a 'household hazardous waste roundup'. Google it and you city name to figure out where and when your's is. I assume that most other countries have something similar...
If you can't get to one of those, I would suggest adding enough backing soda (bicarbonate) that the ph is >7, put it in a sealed container, and send it off you your landfill...
I suppose if all of the copper is precipated out it will get taken out with the 'sludge' from a treatment plant, but then that is probably going back on your farms...
Just to give an idea as to the toxcisity of the Cu2+ ion... A common algecide for pools/spas is cupper(II)sulfate. It is used at a .5ppm concentration.
..., Mon Apr 17 2006, 10:40PM
Not to sound like an envirmentalist, but my mom works at the treatment plant so...
Please don't dump it down the drains. Heavy metals do not get taken out in normal treatment plants, and goes pretty much strait through to the outfall (depends on where you live, could be ocean, river, irrigation, groundwater, or even drinking water). Sure that one bucket you have might not make a diference, but...
If you live in the US, you should take it to a 'household hazardous waste roundup'. Google it and you city name to figure out where and when your's is. I assume that most other countries have something similar...
If you can't get to one of those, I would suggest adding enough backing soda (bicarbonate) that the ph is >7, put it in a sealed container, and send it off you your landfill...
I suppose if all of the copper is precipated out it will get taken out with the 'sludge' from a treatment plant, but then that is probably going back on your farms...
Just to give an idea as to the toxcisity of the Cu2+ ion... A common algecide for pools/spas is cupper(II)sulfate. It is used at a .5ppm concentration.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Electroholic, Tue Apr 18 2006, 12:54AM
y not just use some base to ppt the Cu?
then just filter it
Electroholic, Tue Apr 18 2006, 12:54AM
y not just use some base to ppt the Cu?
then just filter it
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
GODSFUSION, Tue Apr 18 2006, 01:40AM
This is what it is, the FeCL3 its self dosent touch the bolts they just hold up the lid that has the Airator and heater.
I understand your concern for the environment thats why ive asked how to neutralize the stuff so i can safely dispose of it.
GODSFUSION, Tue Apr 18 2006, 01:40AM
This is what it is, the FeCL3 its self dosent touch the bolts they just hold up the lid that has the Airator and heater.
I understand your concern for the environment thats why ive asked how to neutralize the stuff so i can safely dispose of it.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Apr 18 2006, 02:33AM
The bolts will still get attacked by the FeCl3 mist, even if there is little creepage. You will want to put some silicone over them or coat the entire bolt in some lacquer
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Apr 18 2006, 02:33AM
The bolts will still get attacked by the FeCl3 mist, even if there is little creepage. You will want to put some silicone over them or coat the entire bolt in some lacquer
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
GODSFUSION, Tue Apr 18 2006, 09:27AM
there nylon/fibreglass bolts.
- Wayne -
GODSFUSION, Tue Apr 18 2006, 09:27AM
there nylon/fibreglass bolts.
- Wayne -
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Simon, Thu Apr 20 2006, 12:10AM
Shouldn't adding NaOH precipitate the Cu2+ and neutralise the (Lewis) acid? (Chemistry wasn't my best subject and I don't trust myself with Lewis.)
Simon, Thu Apr 20 2006, 12:10AM
Shouldn't adding NaOH precipitate the Cu2+ and neutralise the (Lewis) acid? (Chemistry wasn't my best subject and I don't trust myself with Lewis.)
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Bored Chemist, Thu Apr 20 2006, 12:00PM
Netralising the stuff with bicarbonate of soda or garden lime (CaCO3 will stop it being nasty and corrosive, but it won't stop Cu being toxic (incidentally the iron is toxic too, but less so). You still need to get rid of the stuff at a hazardous waste disposal site.
Short of separating the Fe from the Cl by adding excess NH3 then aeration to make sure all the Fe is oxidised to Fe(III), filternig the Fe(OH)3 off from the copper/ ammonia complex (which dissolves paper btw). then reprecipitating the Cu by evaporatig off the copper, then smelting the Cu and Fe to recover the metals I can't thhink of a solution to the problem other than the waste disposal companies.
OTOH, neutralising it with NaHCO3, settling out the mixed hydroxides/ carbonates and roasting them would give an interesting oxide mixture to use for thermite experiments. Of course, after the thermite is done you still have a toxic mess, but it was more fun in the meantime.
Bored Chemist, Thu Apr 20 2006, 12:00PM
Netralising the stuff with bicarbonate of soda or garden lime (CaCO3 will stop it being nasty and corrosive, but it won't stop Cu being toxic (incidentally the iron is toxic too, but less so). You still need to get rid of the stuff at a hazardous waste disposal site.
Short of separating the Fe from the Cl by adding excess NH3 then aeration to make sure all the Fe is oxidised to Fe(III), filternig the Fe(OH)3 off from the copper/ ammonia complex (which dissolves paper btw). then reprecipitating the Cu by evaporatig off the copper, then smelting the Cu and Fe to recover the metals I can't thhink of a solution to the problem other than the waste disposal companies.
OTOH, neutralising it with NaHCO3, settling out the mixed hydroxides/ carbonates and roasting them would give an interesting oxide mixture to use for thermite experiments. Of course, after the thermite is done you still have a toxic mess, but it was more fun in the meantime.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed Sept 13 2006, 06:33PM
I would have mentioned the Ammonia neutralization and separation (which I have done several times) but its rather difficult and the Ammonia is difficult to work with.
The really strong Ammonia requires a respirator and goggles because it gives a very cold stinging/burning while working with it. Also Ammonia can cause asphyxia and death, so I was avoiding that one.
It's doable if you are patient and careful, and have a gallon or so of the strong stuff.
Matt
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed Sept 13 2006, 06:33PM
I would have mentioned the Ammonia neutralization and separation (which I have done several times) but its rather difficult and the Ammonia is difficult to work with.
The really strong Ammonia requires a respirator and goggles because it gives a very cold stinging/burning while working with it. Also Ammonia can cause asphyxia and death, so I was avoiding that one.
It's doable if you are patient and careful, and have a gallon or so of the strong stuff.
Matt
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
EEYORE, Wed Sept 13 2006, 07:57PM
Poor it on some weeds outside
Matt
EEYORE, Wed Sept 13 2006, 07:57PM
Poor it on some weeds outside
Matt
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Electroholic, Wed Sept 13 2006, 09:46PM
iirc if you have too much ammonia, it forms complex ions with cu2+, adn that stuff is soluable. If you jsut use liek NaOH, it will just ppt, and i mean NaOH isn't that bad, you dont' have to work with the concentrated stuff.
So, what i would do is, Put XS NaOH in there,filter and wash the ppt, then neutralize the liquid with whatever acid you have handy. if not warm NaOH helps with clogged sinks, too. LOL
Electroholic, Wed Sept 13 2006, 09:46PM
iirc if you have too much ammonia, it forms complex ions with cu2+, adn that stuff is soluable. If you jsut use liek NaOH, it will just ppt, and i mean NaOH isn't that bad, you dont' have to work with the concentrated stuff.
So, what i would do is, Put XS NaOH in there,filter and wash the ppt, then neutralize the liquid with whatever acid you have handy. if not warm NaOH helps with clogged sinks, too. LOL
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
badastronaut, Wed Sept 13 2006, 10:23PM
You can precipitate the metal ions by using aluminum foil, then filter and neutralize the solution to get gelatinous aluminum hydroxide. The reaction is extremely exothermic though.
badastronaut, Wed Sept 13 2006, 10:23PM
You can precipitate the metal ions by using aluminum foil, then filter and neutralize the solution to get gelatinous aluminum hydroxide. The reaction is extremely exothermic though.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Chris, Wed Nov 14 2007, 03:16AM
One option if this is a fairly small scale operation, which I'm assuming it is, is to just distill it down and be left with a low volume sludge (or you could dry it to powder too even), which you could either dispose of more easily, or refine for recovery of useful chemicals. The majority of your volume left over would be just water or water with much lower contamination depending on how thoroughly you distilled it. Of course you need an all glass/teflon distillation apparatus for that, but I claim one can be had (ebay) for the cost of not too much hazardous waste disposal. Obviously if you etch a lot of boards you aren't going to be spending the time or energy to distill the waste, but if you have low volume it won't be a problem.
Chris, Wed Nov 14 2007, 03:16AM
One option if this is a fairly small scale operation, which I'm assuming it is, is to just distill it down and be left with a low volume sludge (or you could dry it to powder too even), which you could either dispose of more easily, or refine for recovery of useful chemicals. The majority of your volume left over would be just water or water with much lower contamination depending on how thoroughly you distilled it. Of course you need an all glass/teflon distillation apparatus for that, but I claim one can be had (ebay) for the cost of not too much hazardous waste disposal. Obviously if you etch a lot of boards you aren't going to be spending the time or energy to distill the waste, but if you have low volume it won't be a problem.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
ragnar, Wed Nov 14 2007, 03:30AM
How about sanitizing used ammonium persulphate etchant?
(Should I start a new thread for this?)
ragnar, Wed Nov 14 2007, 03:30AM
How about sanitizing used ammonium persulphate etchant?
(Should I start a new thread for this?)
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Conundrum, Sat Nov 17 2007, 08:17AM
the solution i heard of is to neutralise it, then add the liquid to the appropriate amount of plaster of paris. then mix and wait for it to set, then dispose of as inert waste.
regards, -A
Conundrum, Sat Nov 17 2007, 08:17AM
the solution i heard of is to neutralise it, then add the liquid to the appropriate amount of plaster of paris. then mix and wait for it to set, then dispose of as inert waste.
regards, -A
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Overclocked, Tue Nov 20 2007, 04:37PM
If you Neutralize it, It becomes Iron Hydroxide. If you put Iron Hydroxide in a oven, it becomes Rust, which you can use for Thermite. Or, Rocketry since its used as a catalyst.
Overclocked, Tue Nov 20 2007, 04:37PM
If you Neutralize it, It becomes Iron Hydroxide. If you put Iron Hydroxide in a oven, it becomes Rust, which you can use for Thermite. Or, Rocketry since its used as a catalyst.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Bored Chemist, Tue Nov 20 2007, 06:00PM
You would need to wash it tio take out the chlorides.
Bored Chemist, Tue Nov 20 2007, 06:00PM
You would need to wash it tio take out the chlorides.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Tom540, Tue Nov 20 2007, 06:53PM
Why not just take it somewhere and recycle it? All these solutions sound like more trouble than they're worth.
Tom540, Tue Nov 20 2007, 06:53PM
Why not just take it somewhere and recycle it? All these solutions sound like more trouble than they're worth.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Bored Chemist, Wed Nov 21 2007, 06:03PM
"All these solutions sound like more trouble than they're worth."
So nobody would bother to do them. That means the stuff won't get recyled so how do you propose to acieve the first part of your post "Why not just take it somewhere and recycle it?"
Bored Chemist, Wed Nov 21 2007, 06:03PM
"All these solutions sound like more trouble than they're worth."
So nobody would bother to do them. That means the stuff won't get recyled so how do you propose to acieve the first part of your post "Why not just take it somewhere and recycle it?"
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Tom540, Wed Nov 21 2007, 06:16PM
I meant trying to neutralize it yourself seems like more trouble than just taking it somewhere.
What I'm saying is. Just find a place that recycles it. It would be much easier then mixing a bunch of crap together. Plus recycling is free.
Tom540, Wed Nov 21 2007, 06:16PM
I meant trying to neutralize it yourself seems like more trouble than just taking it somewhere.
What I'm saying is. Just find a place that recycles it. It would be much easier then mixing a bunch of crap together. Plus recycling is free.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Tor, Tue Dec 04 2007, 03:14PM
FeCl3 is not sold anymore and should not be used. FeCl3 is not recycled it is chemical waste! Sodiumpersulphate is used instead and sometimes mixed with little hydrochloric acid. One should not try to neutralize FeCl3 at home (really nasty!). Just take it to some chemical waste facility to dispose of it.
Tor, Tue Dec 04 2007, 03:14PM
FeCl3 is not sold anymore and should not be used. FeCl3 is not recycled it is chemical waste! Sodiumpersulphate is used instead and sometimes mixed with little hydrochloric acid. One should not try to neutralize FeCl3 at home (really nasty!). Just take it to some chemical waste facility to dispose of it.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Bored Chemist, Tue Dec 04 2007, 07:06PM
FeCl3 is not sold anymore and should not be used.
oh yes it is.
"FeCl3 is not recycled it is chemical waste! "
If it is being used it isn't waste.
"Sodiumpersulphate is used instead and sometimes mixed with little hydrochloric acid. "
That mixture is likely to generate chlorine; not a good idea in domestic circumstances.
Anyway, whatever you use to dissolve copper you need to dispose of the toxic copper compounds . Persulphate doesn't get round this problem.
Bored Chemist, Tue Dec 04 2007, 07:06PM
FeCl3 is not sold anymore and should not be used.
oh yes it is.
"FeCl3 is not recycled it is chemical waste! "
If it is being used it isn't waste.
"Sodiumpersulphate is used instead and sometimes mixed with little hydrochloric acid. "
That mixture is likely to generate chlorine; not a good idea in domestic circumstances.
Anyway, whatever you use to dissolve copper you need to dispose of the toxic copper compounds . Persulphate doesn't get round this problem.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Mates, Tue Dec 04 2007, 07:39PM
I’m not sure how nature friendly it is, but maybe one option is just to spill the old FeCl3 on multiple layers of old newspaper, let it air dry and than burn it… You get just oxides which should be more or less harmless and mainly by polluting it via fire you dissolve it to concentrations the nature can easily handle.
Mates, Tue Dec 04 2007, 07:39PM
I’m not sure how nature friendly it is, but maybe one option is just to spill the old FeCl3 on multiple layers of old newspaper, let it air dry and than burn it… You get just oxides which should be more or less harmless and mainly by polluting it via fire you dissolve it to concentrations the nature can easily handle.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed Dec 05 2007, 12:43AM
No no no. Do not burn it, the Chlorine is very irritating and what you're suggesting means you haven't worked with the material enough to know what to do.
We have already discussed this ad-nausium.
Either keep an etch tank so you dont have to dispose of it.
Neutralize with NaOH, or other material to solidify the material for easy disposal.
Do not dump in toilet, pour on lawn, or any other shady method.
FeCl3 is still sold at some Electronics stores.
FeCl3 is a hazardous material so it should be disposed of as a hazardous material.
If you are still unsure of what you should do, go back and read the entire thread since we have answered these problems for the most part. Some of these questions are just getting repeted by the newer memebers and it isn't necessary.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed Dec 05 2007, 12:43AM
No no no. Do not burn it, the Chlorine is very irritating and what you're suggesting means you haven't worked with the material enough to know what to do.
We have already discussed this ad-nausium.
Either keep an etch tank so you dont have to dispose of it.
Neutralize with NaOH, or other material to solidify the material for easy disposal.
Do not dump in toilet, pour on lawn, or any other shady method.
FeCl3 is still sold at some Electronics stores.
FeCl3 is a hazardous material so it should be disposed of as a hazardous material.
If you are still unsure of what you should do, go back and read the entire thread since we have answered these problems for the most part. Some of these questions are just getting repeted by the newer memebers and it isn't necessary.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
thermite, Sun Feb 17 2008, 11:46PM
the industrially used method in all the big etching plants is to neutralize FeCl3 using MgO, Lime or Limestone with the MgO being the most preferred. The the precipitate is settled and filtered to make cakes which contain precious and poisonous and environmentally harmful metals. This is sent to the steel mills to be reused. MgCl2 is send to other industries that use it.
thermite, Sun Feb 17 2008, 11:46PM
the industrially used method in all the big etching plants is to neutralize FeCl3 using MgO, Lime or Limestone with the MgO being the most preferred. The the precipitate is settled and filtered to make cakes which contain precious and poisonous and environmentally harmful metals. This is sent to the steel mills to be reused. MgCl2 is send to other industries that use it.
Re: How to neutralize FeCl3
Weston, Thu Feb 28 2008, 06:08PM
I belive i foud a way. add a tin strip. i belive the copper come out. i had a grey priticipate and a clear sulution which when i added more H202 could desolve more copper.
Weston, Thu Feb 28 2008, 06:08PM
I belive i foud a way. add a tin strip. i belive the copper come out. i had a grey priticipate and a clear sulution which when i added more H202 could desolve more copper.
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