Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Mar 26 2006, 06:58PM

oh.....and the warming will cause an ice age, neat huh....strange how warming up can cause a big chill.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
HV Enthusiast, Sun Mar 26 2006, 09:39PM

Well, according to the map, both my regular house and shore property will be underwater, so i should sell now!!! heh heh

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Sam, Sun Mar 26 2006, 10:38PM

I've talked myself into thinking I'll be dead by then.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
williamn, Sun Mar 26 2006, 11:35PM

What ever the lessons learned, dont forget the evil capitalists are to blame, especially the USA. Anyone else here think man-made global warming is a crock?

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Mon Mar 27 2006, 12:32AM

*sighs* I hate the blame game

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
HV Enthusiast, Mon Mar 27 2006, 12:44AM

i think its a crock . . .

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
AndrewM, Mon Mar 27 2006, 04:16AM

Read Michael Crichton's State of Fear. Its fiction, and hardly an objectve analysis, but its a good read, and theres a staggering body of evidence in there.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
ragnar, Mon Mar 27 2006, 05:18AM


Don't blame "THE USA" or a society. Remember, a society is composed of individuals. There are plenty of regulations in place (tens and tens of thousands of pages) to make it difficult to pollute the environment. It's not just one country or one group of people.

Ever heard of rivers in China, Egypt catching on fire? Ever been to china, hong kong? Sure, some countries are 'greedier' than others, but capitalism is not the problem. Laissez-faire capitalism would allow people to explore more enviro-friendly technologies, more than which I can list here. As a society, Australia isn't a very attractive place to do research. The US is, which is why most of our brains seem to make their way across the pond.

You shut down the capitalistic USA, and who will be left to research the solutions?

edit; did I just reread your post to find that you were being cynical and facetious? ^^

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Desmogod, Mon Mar 27 2006, 06:28AM

That said, Why won't the U.S. sign the kyoto treaty?
Because they would fall in a heap if they did.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
williamn, Mon Mar 27 2006, 07:10AM

edit; did I just reread your post to find that you were being cynical and facetious?

Cynical with a capitalC

AS for the Kyoto protocol, read it, that should provide you with the anwer to your question. I would like to see John Bolton use it for TP. I have had the "fortune" to travel to a couple "less industrialised countires" and I can definately tell you we care alot more about the environment than the governments of some of these 3rd world nations. I work in the petrochem (environmental cleanup) industry, this shit is my bread and butter.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Dr. Slack, Mon Mar 27 2006, 07:59AM

Don't be too hard on the USA. The capitalism that they're doing now is pretty much what civilisation has been doing since the Greeks and Chinese, and especially the Europeans since 1800, but just doing it on a much larger scale.

Take about two paces back and take the long view.

Mining sucks, the deposits are going to run out within a forecastable time frame (but hey, not necessaily my lifetime, or my polical tenure). It doubly sucks if the spoil heap is actually damaging the place. So to dig up coal, oil gas and throw the waste into the air is really {dumb|smart} (choose one of). CCS (Carbon Capture and Sequestration) is slightly better as it puts the spoil heap underground, IFF that spoil heap is not going to get free anytime soon, but it's a lot less efficient than just chucking the spoil up the chimney.

Mining Uranium suffers from a different class of spoil heap problem, but a lot of people are touting it as the heap is physically much smaller. If it provides a temporary energy bridge to get us to solar, then it may be the least of several evils.

So we are left with farming/milking, which means the sun. It can be captured with PhotoVoltaics, with mirror/steam cycles, or harness eons of evolution and let biology do it with willow or other biomass plantations. Easy, apart from the area required, and the lower return on capital invested versus carbon/uranium mining, when computed with today's balance sheet methods.

However, the first problem is not going to be energy, but population. Let's assume that rising CO2 levels does raise the sea-level by a few metres. That's 25% of the world's population on coastal plains have gotta move to higher ground. What happens when this many people want a new territory? World wars have been fought over much smaller territorial ambitions, wars are presently being fought over territory issues which are nano-scale in comparison.

I am reminded of the film cliche where the hero and the villian are punching each other's lights out (capitalist economic warfare), whilst riding a train/plane/mining cart that we know (and they know) is going to crash (global warming and over-population). Don't like the metaphor? Find me a better one!

So, guys, who is going to take their head out of their ar$e, put the planet first, solve area/population/territory/energy issues, and run a less efficient industry? I don't see too many volunteers. Actually I dont see too many people capable of the job.

IMHO I don't see any good outcome for this. I think I'll just settle for being dead when the $hit hits the fan. You youngsters, you may want to move to higher, less densely populated ground now.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Ben, Mon Mar 27 2006, 03:14PM


To make your metaphor better you might want to add that the side effect of these guys punching each others lights out is magical anti-crashing technology pooping out their asses. Also if they stop fighting one will die while other lives a short, harsh life.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Dr. Drone, Mon Mar 27 2006, 06:54PM

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Madgyver, Mon Mar 27 2006, 07:06PM

I don't blame the USA. I don't blame U.S. citizens.

I do blame american eco politics and industry driven administration.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
FastMHz, Mon Mar 27 2006, 07:36PM


Well said - and I didn't vote for the current admin either!

I don't blame any one country either. Think about this: India, China, Russia, etc are just now industrializing on a massive scale. Remember the dirt pouring out of American factories in the mid 20th century? This will be a repeat but much worse.

I'm an enviro-nut and do my best to help. I try to save all the electricity that I can, have energy efficient appliances, keep the thermostat down in the winter, drive a 4-banger and I don't litter. Governments need to take action to make a big difference, and none of them are (that I know of).

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
..., Mon Mar 27 2006, 11:53PM


The EPA here has made some pretty impressive moves... There was a deadline that .5million alternative fuel Cars had to be in service, smog requirements keep getting tighter, etc. Admitantly nothing drastic but that is only because they couldn't get it approved if they did. It has been working though, I (living in southern california) can vouch for that

You guys seem to think that solar power is the way to go; currently solar cells are $5/watt. An average house uses 14kw/h a day. So if you average 5 hours of sun a day; that is almost $15k in solar cells per person. Not including the electric car you will need to power. If you can get things going on a large scale and use large scale solar 'power towers' it comes down to the $5k/person. There is just no way that anyone would vote to put $5k+ on their taxes.

There are some individuals that try to go off the grid, or at least use alternative forms of energy to have a lower net or even negative power consumption, but it is really not cost effective yet.

More of a help are companies doing their part. Like my school district has only cng buses. Sure they are still fossil fuel, but they produce less of the particularly nasty ones, and right now a lot of the world's natural gas is just being burned in flares because it is too hard to transport it (that's another thing that we didn't vote for).

Just saying...

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
HV Enthusiast, Tue Mar 28 2006, 12:14AM

Well, if not for the liberals, we'd have a lot more nuclear power plants around generating safe and clean power . . . i'm sure the occasional nuclear disaster isn't as bad as the overall effect of global warming . . .

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Desmogod, Tue Mar 28 2006, 12:50AM


As soon as people realise that we have a finite supply of resources, then things like nuclear power will become more commonplace. It's just scaremongering from fossil fuel companies and ill informed idiots that has stifled the rollout of atomic energy on a wider scale.
Also, the use of fossil fuels to run cars is another bone of contention. What I find amazing is that it is a very simple fix to allow cars to run corn based alcohol, or bio diesel (VERY easy to make). BUT (And I know this is the case in Australia) It is ILLEGAL to run your cars on a sustainable fuel like biodiesel because the government can't tax it.
This means that I could be helping the environment, using up old oils that would otherwise end up in landfills or leached back into the environment, but the pollies won't let me because they can't get their slice of the cake.
Ludicrous.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
williamn, Tue Mar 28 2006, 02:05AM

What about the energy you need to use to distill the cornbased alchohol, is it a fossil fuel by chance? Bottom line is, minus the ocassional hippie, most people really dont care about conservation. They might say they are taking the high ground, but in reality they use just about as much engergy as the next guy(macro view). The driving force to find a "cleaner" energy force will always be economics. People will be driven to find another way when gasoline costs become to high for the market to bear. Then solar and or ethenol might be cost effective sources. If you talk to any geophysicist they will tell you oil is not rare by anymeans. The Earth is literally swimming in the stuff. It just so happens alot of it is in countries with questionable goverments.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Desmogod, Tue Mar 28 2006, 02:43AM


Really, there is that much oil in the US?

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Mar 28 2006, 03:06AM

Okay...let's just pretend for a moment that I, the American in So. Ca. is to blame for pollution, driving my GMC Jimmy with a catalytic converter and keeping it tuned up.

What does that say for the illegals that drive BLUE fuming trucks and 2-stroke leaf blowers which choak me every time I get near them. Hell, since our front door in our town home doesn't have a seal around it, I can SMELL the exhaust whenever one of those things is close!

Oh, have any of you ever been to an anodize facility. Do you even know how much Nitric Acid they use and how much Oxide they release into the atmosphere!! Yea, all your green ideas put to waste by one anodize facility, and in spades!!

You want to know what's really bad. Just look at anyone processing Titanium. They use Nitric-Biflouride on an almost daily basis, and by the way, we call the cleaning tanks BROWN tanks.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Desmogod, Tue Mar 28 2006, 03:12AM

I have spent many years in mining and oil&gas, and some of the work practices leave a LOT to be desired.
Dump leach/heap leach operations IMHO are some of the worst acts you can perform. First you blow dirty great big scars in the land, and then you you Cyanide in the case of gold, or sulphuric in the case of copper to leach the metals into the solution. This causes so much pollution it's not funny. Standing in the electrowinning shed and seeing the mist rising from the cells is not a comforting sight.

But OTOH, I like my copper cables. No single person is to blame, it's just human nature to be unable to see past our noses.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
williamn, Tue Mar 28 2006, 03:27AM

What does that say for the illegals that drive BLUE fuming trucks and 2-stroke leaf blowers which choak me every time I get near them. Hell, since our front door in our town home doesn't have a seal around it, I can SMELL the exhaust whenever one of those things is close!

I live in Houston and know exactly what you mean.

Really, there is that much oil in the US?

I knew that was comming !
We do have alot of oil, but many enviro extremests groups here wont let us drill for it. What I always like to tell my pinko friends when they bring up the whole killing/scaring the Earth crap is: in a few hundred million years there will be no evidence we even existed, Some other civilization will be drilling for our asses. Those hippies love to hear they will tun into a fossil fuel one day. In case you couldnt tell, I am a rightwing nationalist hardliner.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
WaveRider, Tue Mar 28 2006, 08:42AM

According to the US DOE , the energy to generate one unit of GDP in the US and Canada is about double what it is in Europe and Japan. I think there can be a lot of money to be made in the US helping industry and individuals be more energy efficient without the need for more power plants.

I must admit, as someone living in Europe...I was shocked at the almost casual waste of energy I witnessed during a visit to the States. 14kW/hr a day would break the banks of most European families! For example, in my house, we average 2.0kW/hr a day for electricity (mainly for the fridge and lights) and perhaps 1-2kW/hr for hot water and cooking (gas). We heat our house with an efficient wood-fired stove.

Even the Chinese will eventually reach the point where energy efficiency will begin to pay off for them. Dotting the landscape with N-plants is expensive and locks the energy economy into a centralised production system that brings its own economic, political and environmental risks. There is no single energy source that will save us... we need a flexible, creative approach that weans us off an almost exclusive use of fossil fuels. I, personally having applied renewable energy in my daily life, would like to see it take up more of this challenge in the future of our world.....

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Bjørn, Tue Mar 28 2006, 10:56AM

This thread does not meet the standards that we strive to achieve here at 4HV. We pride ourselves on being a great community, full of people who get along and interact in a professional, intelligent manner.

Here are some rules that has been broken or disregarded:
A. Be respectful
B. Don't be vulgar
C. Be clear and concise... If you have a problem with spelling, spell-check your posts.
D. No trolling
H. Don't use the chatting board as a crutch

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Steve Conner, Tue Mar 28 2006, 11:48AM

Whee, the thread is still unlocked!

williamn: I think you are quite right. According to the Gaia hypothesis (and yes I know it's unscientific and untested but i like it anyway) everything we do to the environment just rebounds on us. So if we use up all the resources and pollute things, poof! We just go extinct and the earth carries on without us. It's amusing to think of the extreme weather and rising sea levels caused by global warming as a first attempt at washing the plague of pesky humans off the face of the earth.

Ben: Where is this magical anti-crashing technology that comes pooping out of the combatants' asses? i assume you're talking about nuclear power as an offshoot of the atom bomb program, and more generally, about war as a catalyst for development? I don't buy it, but that's probably just my personal prejudice. I think military technology is fundamentally different to the kind of technology that we need to use energy in environmentally friendly ways. Uber hippy Amory Lovins liked to draw a distinction between "hard" and "soft" energy, and military systems are pretty hard, since they're designed to destroy things with concentrated energy of a very high thermodynamic temperature.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Madgyver, Tue Mar 28 2006, 02:15PM


That info is obsolete. There is a village here in germany, doing a pilot project by powering there houses entirely by solar power. So far, they were able to achive equilibrium in consumption and "production". And that is in a cloudy country, like germany!
This also pays off, because actually they are using grid power and resell their solar energy to the supllier. The supllier has to buy it back, at a higher price then he is selling it. This is defined by law.

It is a little bit ridiculous, but thats the way how they are trying to push solar power here.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
HV Enthusiast, Tue Mar 28 2006, 02:30PM

Really, there is that much oil in the US?

I knew that was comming !
In case you couldnt tell, I am a rightwing nationalist hardliner.
[/quote1143556111]

Good to see that 4hv isn't completely made up of liberals. And those extremist environmentalist groups that want to save all the happy trees in the Northwest to help save some stupid spotted owl don't think about all the families they would be screwing by putting their parents out of work (lumber industry, etc...) But this is offtopic, so on with global warming . . .

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Chris Russell, Tue Mar 28 2006, 05:41PM

Wow, I really expected more out of a thread than the same old recycled information and arguments that I can find anywhere else. Let's all try to keep it civil, ok? Everyone deserves to be treated with respect, even if they have the unmitigated gall to support a different political party, or live in a different country.

Global warming a crock? Maybe, maybe not. Sure seems like something is happening, though. All the old timers in this town can remember that every November, there used to be an ice skating rink set up on the river. Now it's been years since the river was iced over enough to walk on, even in January and February. Similar changes are happening everywhere, it seems. If this isn't happening due to man-made global warming, I'd sure like to see an alternate explanation that has some evidence to back it up.


Steve, I think the not-so-amusing part is that it's the people in undeveloped nations, many of whom aren't even using electricity or cars, will be the first to start dying. If this is the Earth's attempt at stopping a "plague," it seems like the Earth's immune system could use a little fine-tuning.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Ben, Tue Mar 28 2006, 06:09PM

Technology in general was what I was referring to. Profit(of which money is only one representation) drives innovation(all of it). I was assuming the fighting was capitalism, at least that was the implication I read in the original metaphor. Capitalism is all about exploiting human nature(greed) to extract extraordinary efficiencies.
I'll just give one example, out of many, to counter this odd claim. The internet....

The distinction between "hard" and "soft" energy along millitary/civilian lines is dubious....at best. The distinction in and of itself is pretty arbitrary. I wouldn't call the Sun "soft" power. Or lava. No offense, but this argument reminds me of when this pothead tried to explain quantum mechanics to me; he waved his hands.......a lot.

Ethanol is not a viable solution. Probably won't ever be. Perhaps some bioengineered "fuel plant" could be. It would likely come with it's own trade-offs.
It does seem to have a lot of strongly held, but not well thought out opinions, on every side.(I'm accusing anyone in particular, here)


Here's some good news, soon pig will both taste good and be good for you.

Re: The Biggest Lesson to be learned from Global Warming . . .
Steve Conner, Thu Mar 30 2006, 10:23AM

I must admit that Ben got me with the internet thing. I forgot that it was originally designed as a military communications network that could survive a nuclear attack. So I don't really have a leg to stand on.

I'm not really fit to contribute to this debate anyway, since I suffer from several cognitive biases, perhaps the worst being the "Michael Moore Is Cool Effect". I kind of suspect Ben has the opposite bias to mine, the "Defense Research Must Be Good For The Planet Because I Do it And I'm A Great Guy Effect " These two views of the world obviously aren't compatible so we could argue forever without getting anywhere. So I'll give up now.