HD-DVD PCB maker
Conundrum, Sat Jun 21 2008, 11:11AMHi all.
I had a discussion with someone a while back about whether the NUV light from a Blu-ray or HD-DVD laser diode would be powerful enough to "burn" the photosensitive coating on a piece of FR-4 PCB.
It works!!!! just tried it now and I can see patches of the green photoresist have visibly changed reflectivity where I "drew" on them with my focussed HD-DVD laser running at about 37.5mA (parallel 2K4 resistor means I am actually feeding it 39mA) with about a 0.2 second exposure.
Setup is the diode with the Blu-ray lens placed directly on top with about a 0.1mm gap, encased in some low melting point alloy with connections and resistor shielded by epoxy.
Currently running from LM317T with 39 ohm and 180 ohms in parallel from Adj to Out.
(memo to self:- check output current BEFORE hooking up diode!!)
Next step will be to set up a modified "print" head using a stepper and board feeder.
I would expect a Blu-ray laser to work more effectively however the one I removed from the broken PS3 laser module was a lot more sensitive than expected and suffered COD during testing (and also had pre-existing damage showing up as "lines" on the uncollimated output.
This laser was removed from a surplus HD-DVD Xbox 360 drive, which there seem to be quite a few of (I wonder why haha) and these are the cheapest source other than PS3 lasers. I got mine for £32 on Ebay with mains adaptor and remote, plus you can use the gutted drive to play DVDs as the red laser diode is separate from the HD diode.
regards, -Ae
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Finn Hammer, Sat Jun 21 2008, 02:55PM
Chers, Finn Hammer
Finn Hammer, Sat Jun 21 2008, 02:55PM
Conundrum wrote ...
Next step will be to set up a modified "print" head using a stepper and board feeder.
This could become something big, but wouldn`t the next logical step be to dump the PCB in drain cleaner to see if it has developed at all?Next step will be to set up a modified "print" head using a stepper and board feeder.
Chers, Finn Hammer
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Hon1nbo, Sat Jun 21 2008, 04:05PM
very good idea, as those diodes emit quite a bit of UV... I would love to see a full homemade PCB machine... I am sure this would be a must try project...
Hon1nbo, Sat Jun 21 2008, 04:05PM
very good idea, as those diodes emit quite a bit of UV... I would love to see a full homemade PCB machine... I am sure this would be a must try project...
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
..., Sat Jun 21 2008, 05:14PM
I would try looking for bare diodes on ebay, I got a 130mw 405nm diode for about $60 (and there are still some left for sale)
In any case, I hope you can make this idea work!
..., Sat Jun 21 2008, 05:14PM
I would try looking for bare diodes on ebay, I got a 130mw 405nm diode for about $60 (and there are still some left for sale)
In any case, I hope you can make this idea work!
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Conundrum, Sat Jun 21 2008, 07:55PM
Hmm. I assume that by "drain cleaner" you mean something based on sodium hydroxide.
Catch is, I can't get that over here. I can get washing soda or caustic soda, but a solution of the former did nothing.
Tried Jessops but no go (though they did have some acetic acid "stop" bath bottles)
Any ideas?
BTW it looks like I may be getting another BLU-ray diode to play with as this new one still won't read disks due to some sort of alignment issue. I am loathe to send it back so as soon as the new deck arrives this one is getting modded :)
Conundrum, Sat Jun 21 2008, 07:55PM
Hmm. I assume that by "drain cleaner" you mean something based on sodium hydroxide.
Catch is, I can't get that over here. I can get washing soda or caustic soda, but a solution of the former did nothing.
Tried Jessops but no go (though they did have some acetic acid "stop" bath bottles)
Any ideas?
BTW it looks like I may be getting another BLU-ray diode to play with as this new one still won't read disks due to some sort of alignment issue. I am loathe to send it back so as soon as the new deck arrives this one is getting modded :)
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Finn Hammer, Sat Jun 21 2008, 09:58PM
That`s right, but the main point was that I thought it would be a good idea to develop this first test piece
before building a whole cnc machine.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
Finn Hammer, Sat Jun 21 2008, 09:58PM
Conundrum wrote ...
Hmm. I assume that by "drain cleaner" you mean something based on sodium hydroxide.
Hmm. I assume that by "drain cleaner" you mean something based on sodium hydroxide.
That`s right, but the main point was that I thought it would be a good idea to develop this first test piece
before building a whole cnc machine.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Experimentonomen, Sun Jun 22 2008, 09:26AM
Why not just mod a laser printer as in removing the drum and redo the mechanics to accomodate a flat board, then replace the laser with one with the right wavelenght ?
Experimentonomen, Sun Jun 22 2008, 09:26AM
Why not just mod a laser printer as in removing the drum and redo the mechanics to accomodate a flat board, then replace the laser with one with the right wavelenght ?
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Conundrum, Sun Jun 22 2008, 10:45AM
Interesting idea, but you'd have to replace the optics as the blue diode is reallly hard to focus. I had to work for nearly an hour making incremental adjustments on the epoxy lens mount just to get a reasonably good spot geometry.
OTOH, if you gut a Bluray module you can remove that little microscopic circular grating under the lens, put this above the laser diode (if need be leave the lens intact but trim its mountings) and the resultant beam should be a lot "cleaner" but you'll lose some output.
I set the focus for about 8cm but obviously this can be shortened.
see here
This guy is selling brand new Blu-ray diodes
hope this helps, -A
Conundrum, Sun Jun 22 2008, 10:45AM
Interesting idea, but you'd have to replace the optics as the blue diode is reallly hard to focus. I had to work for nearly an hour making incremental adjustments on the epoxy lens mount just to get a reasonably good spot geometry.
OTOH, if you gut a Bluray module you can remove that little microscopic circular grating under the lens, put this above the laser diode (if need be leave the lens intact but trim its mountings) and the resultant beam should be a lot "cleaner" but you'll lose some output.
I set the focus for about 8cm but obviously this can be shortened.
see here
This guy is selling brand new Blu-ray diodes
hope this helps, -A
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
..., Sun Jun 22 2008, 06:19PM
but for the same price this guy is selling 150mw ones
BTW, for focusing I have had very good luck using the cheepo diode colminators (like you just unscrew the end a little to correct the focus
..., Sun Jun 22 2008, 06:19PM
but for the same price this guy is selling 150mw ones
BTW, for focusing I have had very good luck using the cheepo diode colminators (like
you just unscrew the end a little to correct the focusRe: HD-DVD PCB maker
GeordieBoy, Sun Jun 22 2008, 07:53PM
Wouldn't a focused laser diode write in such thin lines (like 10 micron spot size or smaller?) that exposing photoresist on a PCB using a focused laser diode would take forever?
GeordieBoy, Sun Jun 22 2008, 07:53PM
Wouldn't a focused laser diode write in such thin lines (like 10 micron spot size or smaller?) that exposing photoresist on a PCB using a focused laser diode would take forever?
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
EEYORE, Mon Jun 23 2008, 03:25AM
Matt
EEYORE, Mon Jun 23 2008, 03:25AM
GeordieBoy wrote ...
Wouldn't a focused laser diode write in such thin lines (like 10 micron spot size or smaller?) that exposing photoresist on a PCB using a focused laser diode would take forever?
You could just bring the laser out of focus a little...Right?Wouldn't a focused laser diode write in such thin lines (like 10 micron spot size or smaller?) that exposing photoresist on a PCB using a focused laser diode would take forever?
Matt
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
GeordieBoy, Mon Jun 23 2008, 09:57AM
> You could just bring the laser out of focus a little...Right?
...but that will presumably decrease the power density meaning it will take much longer to expose?
GeordieBoy, Mon Jun 23 2008, 09:57AM
> You could just bring the laser out of focus a little...Right?
...but that will presumably decrease the power density meaning it will take much longer to expose?
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Conundrum, Mon Jun 23 2008, 07:06PM
will have to investigate this. I did obtain some Na(OH)2 so can now develop the PCB. Unfortunately it looks like one of my chemicals mullered up the photoresist but thats no biggie as there's still enough to expose it again.
The power density is high enough that at 0.1mm focus it will still expose a fairly large area (0.3mm diameter when I tried it) so ironically the problem is going to be avoiding over exposure.
Update:- It works, just finished the (slow as molasses) etching now. See below for my ingenious Macgyver-style PCB etch heater..
Update 2:- Have ordered some spray-on PCB photoreactive coating, will update you as to how well this works with the same diode and/or UV LED array (30s exposure time)
-A
"Bother" said Pooh, as the warp nacelle fell off...
Conundrum, Mon Jun 23 2008, 07:06PM
will have to investigate this. I did obtain some Na(OH)2 so can now develop the PCB. Unfortunately it looks like one of my chemicals mullered up the photoresist but thats no biggie as there's still enough to expose it again.
The power density is high enough that at 0.1mm focus it will still expose a fairly large area (0.3mm diameter when I tried it) so ironically the problem is going to be avoiding over exposure.
Update:- It works, just finished the (slow as molasses) etching now. See below for my ingenious Macgyver-style PCB etch heater..
Update 2:- Have ordered some spray-on PCB photoreactive coating, will update you as to how well this works with the same diode and/or UV LED array (30s exposure time)
-A
"Bother" said Pooh, as the warp nacelle fell off...
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Conundrum, Tue Jul 08 2008, 06:26PM
Update:- I discovered a slight problem with the Ebay purchased photosensitive material as it is the "blue" type inferior dye. It does work but is about an order of magnitude less sensitive.
I suspect that rapidly spinning the PCB during spraying will get around this problem (google "spin coating") and will try this next. In the meantime, perhaps an additional modification would be to irradiate the vicinity of the focus area with UV light from conventional NUV LED's to presensitise the PCB and let the laser do its work more quickly.
Side effects would include a chance of burn-through, but the increase in throughput would be worth it.
Please advise. I can't believe I'm the only person to be working on this...
regards, A
Conundrum, Tue Jul 08 2008, 06:26PM
Update:- I discovered a slight problem with the Ebay purchased photosensitive material as it is the "blue" type inferior dye. It does work but is about an order of magnitude less sensitive.
I suspect that rapidly spinning the PCB during spraying will get around this problem (google "spin coating") and will try this next. In the meantime, perhaps an additional modification would be to irradiate the vicinity of the focus area with UV light from conventional NUV LED's to presensitise the PCB and let the laser do its work more quickly.
Side effects would include a chance of burn-through, but the increase in throughput would be worth it.
Please advise. I can't believe I'm the only person to be working on this...
regards, A
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Carbon_Rod, Wed Jul 09 2008, 11:05PM
For thin coats slow dry at a 60' angle.
note if any droplets appear there was too much emulsion applied.
Photo plotters were around for many years, but became much less popular in the late 90's.
Carbon_Rod, Wed Jul 09 2008, 11:05PM
For thin coats slow dry at a 60' angle.
note if any droplets appear there was too much emulsion applied.
Photo plotters were around for many years, but became much less popular in the late 90's.
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
aonomus, Thu Jul 10 2008, 01:43AM
You got posted on Hack A Day I think....
aonomus, Thu Jul 10 2008, 01:43AM
You got posted on Hack A Day I think....
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Conundrum, Sun Aug 10 2008, 01:38PM
*This* is what happens when you use a proper 150mW Blu-ray burner diode instead of a wimpy HD-DVD read laser.
Obviously you ABSOLUTELY MUST USE safety goggles!!!!!!!! I used one of those gas welding goggles which does work but would strongly recommend the correct equipment.
(end of safety rant)
Diode is being run at approx. 95.6mA which is well within its safe limits. The seller says he has run them up to 120mA but for test purposes this is fine.
Safety circuits include:- parallel 1K resistor and 0.1uF capacitor, input smoothing and zener, so that in the unlikely event of a regulator problem or other anomaly the diode should survive.
As you can see, I've encased the diode in low melt 95c alloy and mounted the lens the same way, this is not ideal but it does at least allow reasonable run times without risking thermal runaway.
I estimate heat being generated is around 0.7W at 95mA
The assembly is mounted on a surplus heat pipe from a broken PC motherboard, and fixed to the HP LJ module with epoxy.
I had to remove the two beam shaping lenses as it turned out they defocussed and absorbed the beam too much, without them the dot looks much sharper and the beam is nice and round with few artifacts.
UPDATE 2:- Spin coating the PCB with resist works well, you need to do this in low light however or your hard work will be wasted. I
used a modified PC PSU fan motor and glued the PCB to it, then started from the inside edge and worked outwards at about 1cm/sec then let it dry. The results speak for themselves :)
Here are some pics.
Conundrum, Sun Aug 10 2008, 01:38PM
*This* is what happens when you use a proper 150mW Blu-ray burner diode instead of a wimpy HD-DVD read laser.
Obviously you ABSOLUTELY MUST USE safety goggles!!!!!!!! I used one of those gas welding goggles which does work but would strongly recommend the correct equipment.
(end of safety rant)
Diode is being run at approx. 95.6mA which is well within its safe limits. The seller says he has run them up to 120mA but for test purposes this is fine.
Safety circuits include:- parallel 1K resistor and 0.1uF capacitor, input smoothing and zener, so that in the unlikely event of a regulator problem or other anomaly the diode should survive.
As you can see, I've encased the diode in low melt 95c alloy and mounted the lens the same way, this is not ideal but it does at least allow reasonable run times without risking thermal runaway.
I estimate heat being generated is around 0.7W at 95mA
The assembly is mounted on a surplus heat pipe from a broken PC motherboard, and fixed to the HP LJ module with epoxy.
I had to remove the two beam shaping lenses as it turned out they defocussed and absorbed the beam too much, without them the dot looks much sharper and the beam is nice and round with few artifacts.
UPDATE 2:- Spin coating the PCB with resist works well, you need to do this in low light however or your hard work will be wasted. I
used a modified PC PSU fan motor and glued the PCB to it, then started from the inside edge and worked outwards at about 1cm/sec then let it dry. The results speak for themselves :)
Here are some pics.
Re: HD-DVD PCB maker
Conundrum, Fri Jan 02 2009, 05:06PM
Hi..
I have mounted the scan module onto a spare scanner cover, so it now has stepper and CDROM drives as the X and Y grids.
The scanning area is approx 2" across (with modified laptop drive unit) and it also etches through the glass thereby preventing the annoying PCB alignment problems.
Observe.
-A
Conundrum, Fri Jan 02 2009, 05:06PM
Hi..
I have mounted the scan module onto a spare scanner cover, so it now has stepper and CDROM drives as the X and Y grids.
The scanning area is approx 2" across (with modified laptop drive unit) and it also etches through the glass thereby preventing the annoying PCB alignment problems.
Observe.
-A
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