Thermite
ChemTechLabs, Sat Feb 11 2006, 05:06AMIf anyone has ever whipped up a batch of Thermite that has succesfully worked, please help me!
. I've tried different ratios of the Iron Oxide to the Aluminum Powder but it hasn't worked for me yet. Does anyone know a ratio that would work well? And what about methods of ignition? i've tried Magnesium strips and that doesn't seem to be very effective either. it could be that its too small of an amount that it wont light, other than that i'm stumped.Re: Thermite
..., Sat Feb 11 2006, 05:31AM
how did I know the first thread in chemistry would be about thermite
If you wanted to do the math you would take the reaction 2Al + Fe2O3 => 2Fe + Al2O3, and then use the molar masses of Al and Fe2O3 (27g/mol and 160g/mol respectively) to get a ratio of 3 parts Fe to 1 part Al (by weight) for a stoichiometric reaction.
As far as the real life reaction, you must be sure that the aluminum and rust you are using are very finely ground (otherwise the reaction will not proceed as quickly as you would like), and that they are thoroughly mixed (so you have the right mixture throughout the burn, not a to much aluminum then too much rust).
One way to insure an even mix is to mix the two in solution of some volatile substance (like methanol or acetone) and let it dry. This insures that you get a good even mix of aluminum and rust.
Good luck and be safe!
..., Sat Feb 11 2006, 05:31AM
how did I know the first thread in chemistry would be about thermite
If you wanted to do the math you would take the reaction 2Al + Fe2O3 => 2Fe + Al2O3, and then use the molar masses of Al and Fe2O3 (27g/mol and 160g/mol respectively) to get a ratio of 3 parts Fe to 1 part Al (by weight) for a stoichiometric reaction.
As far as the real life reaction, you must be sure that the aluminum and rust you are using are very finely ground (otherwise the reaction will not proceed as quickly as you would like), and that they are thoroughly mixed (so you have the right mixture throughout the burn, not a to much aluminum then too much rust).
One way to insure an even mix is to mix the two in solution of some volatile substance (like methanol or acetone) and let it dry. This insures that you get a good even mix of aluminum and rust.
Good luck and be safe!
Re: Thermite
Mike, Sat Feb 11 2006, 07:32AM
Well, I would suggest buying higher grade Aluminum , pyro aluminum
, sells very high grade stuff.
Also on your synthesis, the rust should be approximately 2.888 the mass of the aluminium. If you don't want to buy from pyro aluminum, you can get powder from paint shops and auto shops since it is used in paints. Iron Oxide is also used as a cement color, so it may be found at a hardware store / industrial.
Have fun!
Edit: And on the point of starting it:
For Magnesium Strip. Place the strip alongside the thermite. A potentially safer method if materials are available is to place ground potassium permanganate in a small crater in the thermite and pour glycerine on top.
It is also possible to use certain types of sparkler fireworks and probably magnesium road flares. The magnesium fire starters used for camping will ignite thermite. A small (1cm3) crater should be dug in the mixture and filled with the filings scraped away from the magnesium block.
An alternative method of igniting thermite is to use the head of an ordinary match. The simplist way to do this is to place the head of the match into the thermite, and then light the other end of the match. When it burns down to the bottom (the head), the chemical ignitor of the match will light and get hot enough, if only for a second, to ignite the thermite reaction.
I would suggest the match method first, since it is the easiest, how ever it may just be a myth. More Info at Wiki Synthesis:
Mike, Sat Feb 11 2006, 07:32AM
Well, I would suggest buying higher grade Aluminum , pyro aluminum
, sells very high grade stuff. Also on your synthesis, the rust should be approximately 2.888 the mass of the aluminium. If you don't want to buy from pyro aluminum, you can get powder from paint shops and auto shops since it is used in paints. Iron Oxide is also used as a cement color, so it may be found at a hardware store / industrial.
Have fun!
Edit: And on the point of starting it:
For Magnesium Strip. Place the strip alongside the thermite. A potentially safer method if materials are available is to place ground potassium permanganate in a small crater in the thermite and pour glycerine on top.
It is also possible to use certain types of sparkler fireworks and probably magnesium road flares. The magnesium fire starters used for camping will ignite thermite. A small (1cm3) crater should be dug in the mixture and filled with the filings scraped away from the magnesium block.
An alternative method of igniting thermite is to use the head of an ordinary match. The simplist way to do this is to place the head of the match into the thermite, and then light the other end of the match. When it burns down to the bottom (the head), the chemical ignitor of the match will light and get hot enough, if only for a second, to ignite the thermite reaction.
I would suggest the match method first, since it is the easiest, how ever it may just be a myth. More Info at Wiki Synthesis:
Re: Thermite
craigsarea, Sat Feb 11 2006, 10:34AM
It's not chemistry without thermite
.
I've got some thermite reactions on my website:
I used 250/D grade aluminium powder. For the iron oxide I tried both homemade and LR grade. The homemade iron oxide was made by electrolysis and gave quite good results.
The best results I got though were when I used LR grade iron oxide. I used 300g of iron oxide and 100g of aluminium powder. The thermite was mixed well and packed tightly into a food can. Once the reaction started it was very fast and very big (loads of heat). At the end there was blobs of molten iron on the floor. The food can had melted almost instantly. The reaction was so fast and fierce I didn't manage to start the video in time to capture it
.
I use a high voltage arc from a 4-MOT stack to ignite my thermite. Although having to setup the 4-MOT stack is real pain so I would recommend the magnesium instead.
If you're making the iron oxide yourself then its colour should be red. Are you making the iron oxide yourself?
craigsarea, Sat Feb 11 2006, 10:34AM
wrote ...
how did I know the first thread in chemistry would be about thermite
how did I know the first thread in chemistry would be about thermite
It's not chemistry without thermite
.I've got some thermite reactions on my website:
I used 250/D grade aluminium powder. For the iron oxide I tried both homemade and LR grade. The homemade iron oxide was made by electrolysis and gave quite good results.
The best results I got though were when I used LR grade iron oxide. I used 300g of iron oxide and 100g of aluminium powder. The thermite was mixed well and packed tightly into a food can. Once the reaction started it was very fast and very big (loads of heat). At the end there was blobs of molten iron on the floor. The food can had melted almost instantly. The reaction was so fast and fierce I didn't manage to start the video in time to capture it
.I use a high voltage arc from a 4-MOT stack to ignite my thermite. Although having to setup the 4-MOT stack is real pain so I would recommend the magnesium instead.
If you're making the iron oxide yourself then its colour should be red. Are you making the iron oxide yourself?
Re: Thermite
Self Defenestrate, Sat Feb 11 2006, 01:35PM
I've gotten a few good thermite reactions, I used a well dipped into the mix filled with shreds of Mg. Turned out my Fe2O3 was bad the first time around, so I bought some red brick pigment from a local hardware store. The Al came from an old Etch-A-Sketch. Fun stuff, but I ran out of aluminum in about two days
Self Defenestrate, Sat Feb 11 2006, 01:35PM
I've gotten a few good thermite reactions, I used a well dipped into the mix filled with shreds of Mg. Turned out my Fe2O3 was bad the first time around, so I bought some red brick pigment from a local hardware store. The Al came from an old Etch-A-Sketch. Fun stuff, but I ran out of aluminum in about two days
Re: Thermite
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Feb 12 2006, 02:55AM
I experimented a lot with Thermite before I had access to chemiclas, credit cards, or a car, and I can say, it really forces a person to be creative.
The absolute hardest part was getting the Al to burn. Why? Well because the only Al I had access to was 6061. It's alloyed to such an extent that even with my cutting torch, tested recently, It does not catch!
So what can you do?
Well, its pretty simple actually. Like everyone else is saying, you can get the Mg firestarters, that helps a lot. But here's where it gets a bit tricky.
Say you don't have good consistantly ground up Al, like my case. After you sand it with a sander, hopefully wearing a lot of protection and that it doesn't ignite in the air, you get the dust of all sizes, mix that with your home made rust, and you've got Thermite, but doesn't ignite. That was my case.
Well, after getting a scale from a pawn shop, and improving my rust process, neutralizing Ferric Chloride, I still had problems. So much of my time was spend very carefully grinding Mg bars down on the drill press with a drum sander. The Mg blows away really easy, so I made a dust box and it worked really well.
Next problem was the fact, MgO extinguishes Thermite!
So you make a 'booster'. Mg and Fe2O3 just like Thermite. This is pretty nasty stuff and really helps to 'boost' the Thermite reaction.
I would have used chlorates, but how does a 16yr old get chlorates without the parents knowing, this is difficult.
So have fun, but be very careful with the dust! Wear gloves because Mg gets under the skin and causes blisters that don't go away until the Mg is removed!
Also protect yourself from the dust getting in your eyes, lungs, hair. And grind very slowly so the heat doesn't build up.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Feb 12 2006, 02:55AM
I experimented a lot with Thermite before I had access to chemiclas, credit cards, or a car, and I can say, it really forces a person to be creative.
The absolute hardest part was getting the Al to burn. Why? Well because the only Al I had access to was 6061. It's alloyed to such an extent that even with my cutting torch, tested recently, It does not catch!
So what can you do?
Well, its pretty simple actually. Like everyone else is saying, you can get the Mg firestarters, that helps a lot. But here's where it gets a bit tricky.
Say you don't have good consistantly ground up Al, like my case. After you sand it with a sander, hopefully wearing a lot of protection and that it doesn't ignite in the air, you get the dust of all sizes, mix that with your home made rust, and you've got Thermite, but doesn't ignite. That was my case.
Well, after getting a scale from a pawn shop, and improving my rust process, neutralizing Ferric Chloride, I still had problems. So much of my time was spend very carefully grinding Mg bars down on the drill press with a drum sander. The Mg blows away really easy, so I made a dust box and it worked really well.
Next problem was the fact, MgO extinguishes Thermite!
So you make a 'booster'. Mg and Fe2O3 just like Thermite. This is pretty nasty stuff and really helps to 'boost' the Thermite reaction.
I would have used chlorates, but how does a 16yr old get chlorates without the parents knowing, this is difficult.
So have fun, but be very careful with the dust! Wear gloves because Mg gets under the skin and causes blisters that don't go away until the Mg is removed!
Also protect yourself from the dust getting in your eyes, lungs, hair. And grind very slowly so the heat doesn't build up.
Re: Thermite
muciek man, Mon Feb 13 2006, 11:52PM
watch that heat build up mg has been known to explode durning machining due to heat buildup same as with mag wheels they would catch a curb,spark instant car fire you probably should use a file instead of a sanding drum eaiser to colect shavings and safer too
better safe then sorry
muciek man, Mon Feb 13 2006, 11:52PM
watch that heat build up mg has been known to explode durning machining due to heat buildup same as with mag wheels they would catch a curb,spark instant car fire you probably should use a file instead of a sanding drum eaiser to colect shavings and safer too
better safe then sorryRe: Thermite
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Feb 14 2006, 06:14AM
filing is very difficult! If you've ever done it you know that your losses are high because the slightest movement of air blows the filings around.
Like I said, if your careful, and I was, and use a dust box protection and are aware of any heat, its not a problem. I don't remember my Mg bar ever getting hot during sanding either. I was using the slowest spindle speed as well.
A note for you guys if you want to use a dust collection box. Don't think under any circumstances that using a shop vac will improve your collection yield! This is an ABSOLUTE mistake! The vacuum is cooled by passing the exhausted air through the motor. If you try to collect Mg with a vacuum you will EXPLODE!.
Be safe okay!
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Feb 14 2006, 06:14AM
filing is very difficult! If you've ever done it you know that your losses are high because the slightest movement of air blows the filings around.
Like I said, if your careful, and I was, and use a dust box protection and are aware of any heat, its not a problem. I don't remember my Mg bar ever getting hot during sanding either. I was using the slowest spindle speed as well.
A note for you guys if you want to use a dust collection box. Don't think under any circumstances that using a shop vac will improve your collection yield! This is an ABSOLUTE mistake! The vacuum is cooled by passing the exhausted air through the motor. If you try to collect Mg with a vacuum you will EXPLODE!.
Be safe okay!
Re: Thermite
ChemTechLabs, Wed Feb 15 2006, 01:27AM
Thanks very much guys, i'll use your tips and hopefully this weekend be succesful!
ChemTechLabs, Wed Feb 15 2006, 01:27AM
Thanks very much guys, i'll use your tips and hopefully this weekend be succesful!
Re: Thermite
IamSmooth, Sat Feb 18 2006, 07:21PM
My first reply on the new board is about Thermite?
I did this when I was in high school. I started it as already stated above some of the others: I used a magnesium strip to set it off. I also used a crude smoke powder made from potassium nitrate and sugar with a waterproof fuse. You just need something very hot.
While having correct stoch ratios are good, they are not necessary to have a successful reaction. The only purpose to having correct ratios here would be to have a complete reaction, using up all of the reactants. If the ratios are not correct you will end up with either unused Al or rust.
Make sure that you do this outside as I melted a large hole in my street and some neighbors called the firedepartment. I was long gone. Ah, highschool.
IamSmooth, Sat Feb 18 2006, 07:21PM
My first reply on the new board is about Thermite?
I did this when I was in high school. I started it as already stated above some of the others: I used a magnesium strip to set it off. I also used a crude smoke powder made from potassium nitrate and sugar with a waterproof fuse. You just need something very hot.
While having correct stoch ratios are good, they are not necessary to have a successful reaction. The only purpose to having correct ratios here would be to have a complete reaction, using up all of the reactants. If the ratios are not correct you will end up with either unused Al or rust.
Make sure that you do this outside as I melted a large hole in my street and some neighbors called the firedepartment. I was long gone. Ah, highschool.
Re: Thermite
Omicron, Sat Feb 18 2006, 09:40PM
Just be safe the stuff burns at about 4000 degrees
Omicron, Sat Feb 18 2006, 09:40PM
Just be safe the stuff burns at about 4000 degrees
Re: Thermite
Jim, Sun Feb 19 2006, 04:22AM
An oxy acetylene torch lights it pretty easily.
Jim, Sun Feb 19 2006, 04:22AM
An oxy acetylene torch lights it pretty easily.
Re: Thermite
Omicron, Sun Feb 19 2006, 05:38PM
I wouldn’t use a oxy-acetylene touch if you paid me. The point of the magnesium ribbon fuse is to give you time to get at least 20 feet away so you if some thing goes wrong you aren’t hit with a rain of molten iron.
Omicron, Sun Feb 19 2006, 05:38PM
I wouldn’t use a oxy-acetylene touch if you paid me. The point of the magnesium ribbon fuse is to give you time to get at least 20 feet away so you if some thing goes wrong you aren’t hit with a rain of molten iron.
Re: Thermite
Michael W., Sun Feb 19 2006, 07:31PM
oh, you'd have a good 2 seconds to get away.....(as the molten metal hits the acetylene tank)
Michael W., Sun Feb 19 2006, 07:31PM
oh, you'd have a good 2 seconds to get away.....(as the molten metal hits the acetylene tank)
Re: Thermite
Marko, Sun Feb 19 2006, 07:51PM
Maybe good idea for lighting it would be some powerful HV source, maybe a mot is a good idea...
But now its more dangerous also...
Marko, Sun Feb 19 2006, 07:51PM
Maybe good idea for lighting it would be some powerful HV source, maybe a mot is a good idea...
But now its more dangerous also...
Re: Thermite
Mike, Sun Feb 19 2006, 08:47PM
Yes arcing is actually a really good, way, just maybe have a mot or flyback a 10yards away with long wires traveling to the thermite. put the wires at jumping distance, and the arc should be hot enough to ignite it, atleast my arcs are.
:)
Mike, Sun Feb 19 2006, 08:47PM
Yes arcing is actually a really good, way, just maybe have a mot or flyback a 10yards away with long wires traveling to the thermite. put the wires at jumping distance, and the arc should be hot enough to ignite it, atleast my arcs are.
:)
Re: Thermite
Omicron, Sun Feb 26 2006, 07:25PM
Just don’t use copper or zinc for electrodes they will explode in to vapor.
Omicron, Sun Feb 26 2006, 07:25PM
Just don’t use copper or zinc for electrodes they will explode in to vapor.
Re: Thermite
IamSmooth, Sun Feb 26 2006, 09:22PM
I think you are all making the THermite experiment more complicated than it needs to be.
All you need is Thermite mixture, fuse, magnesium strip or (sugar/nitrate mixture).
If you set up this fancy arcing equipment it will probably get melted or splattered with molten metal from the reaction.
IamSmooth, Sun Feb 26 2006, 09:22PM
I think you are all making the THermite experiment more complicated than it needs to be.
All you need is Thermite mixture, fuse, magnesium strip or (sugar/nitrate mixture).
If you set up this fancy arcing equipment it will probably get melted or splattered with molten metal from the reaction.
Re: Thermite
Swany, Mon Feb 27 2006, 12:59AM
My first interest that my parents did not approve of was, and is, chemsitry. The next vice on my list is, well, electronics. Somewhat sadly, I am a much better with chemistry than electricity...
The thermite reaction is really quite fascinating and easy. There really is no 'hard' part to it. You need an iron oxide, and you need aluminum. Some elbow grease may be required to prepare both, if they are not handily delivered to your door by a rather frightened UPS man.
Preperation of Iron oxides (II, III and magnetite): Prepare a stock solution of FeCl2. This involves dissolving an iron source in hydrochloric acid. Hydrochloric acid can be bought about 10 molar, or 31.45% at the hardware store for about 4$ per gallon. If you want FeO, or magnetite, you need to dissolve it AWAY from air, basically put it in a jar, and cover the jar such that the evolved H2 gas can escape, but no air can get in. If you want Fe2O3, go ahead and dont cover it. Now, you have dissolved all of the iron that the HCl will take. If you used steel wool, filter out the carbon now. Hopefully you have a pretty green solution of FeCl2* or and orange solution of FeCl3. Now you get to make your oxide. There are 2 ways to go about this, that are practical.
1) Add molar amounts of potassium hydroxide, sodium hydoxide, lye, NaOH, KOH, whatever you want to use. Your iron hydroxide will precipitate, filter, and dry in the oven at a few hundred degrees. This yeilds oxide.
2) Dump in some ammonia solution. This will precipirate the oxide.
Now, magnetite is a complex of FeO and Fe2O3, this means you have to prepare FeCl2 and FeCl3 solution. You can either reduce some FeCl3 solution to FeCl2, or whatever you want to do. One could oxidise their FeCl2 solution to FeCl3 with H2O2 or similar if they didnt want to let it sit in the air for a while. Now, I suggest you mix equimolar amounts of this, and add ammonia. Lots of ammonia. This will precipitate very small particle sized magnetite. This yeilds a more energetic thermite reaction...
Aluminum: Take some Al chunks, pop cans, whatever, and take an angle grinder to them. Something that spins really fast is good. Catch it all in a garbage bag. Make thermite. Or, buy it. Whatever works for you.
Other oxides can be used, in order to isolate their respective metals. Some notable and easy to obtain oxides: CuO, B2O3, MnO2. Copper oxide and aluminum behaves more like a flash powder, and can be quite violent. B2O3 thermite isnt that energetic, though you get boron powder when your done. MnO2 thermite isn't that special, though you can get MnO2 free from old batteries. A D cell battery will yeild about 70g of it!
And, why not make your own chlorates? You can make them quite easily with a homade electrolysis power supply that consists of an old computer power supply, a resistor, and some posts. To obtain sodium chlorate, electrolyse NaCl. Potassium chlorate? KCl. That is essentially it. Naturally, it is more complex, with some subtle nuances that can be annoying, but its quite easy if you really want some.
*PURE FeCl2 is actually a very light yellow. Green solutions etc. are usually due to impurities. These include chromium, and others.
Swany, Mon Feb 27 2006, 12:59AM
My first interest that my parents did not approve of was, and is, chemsitry. The next vice on my list is, well, electronics. Somewhat sadly, I am a much better with chemistry than electricity...
The thermite reaction is really quite fascinating and easy. There really is no 'hard' part to it. You need an iron oxide, and you need aluminum. Some elbow grease may be required to prepare both, if they are not handily delivered to your door by a rather frightened UPS man.
Preperation of Iron oxides (II, III and magnetite): Prepare a stock solution of FeCl2. This involves dissolving an iron source in hydrochloric acid. Hydrochloric acid can be bought about 10 molar, or 31.45% at the hardware store for about 4$ per gallon. If you want FeO, or magnetite, you need to dissolve it AWAY from air, basically put it in a jar, and cover the jar such that the evolved H2 gas can escape, but no air can get in. If you want Fe2O3, go ahead and dont cover it. Now, you have dissolved all of the iron that the HCl will take. If you used steel wool, filter out the carbon now. Hopefully you have a pretty green solution of FeCl2* or and orange solution of FeCl3. Now you get to make your oxide. There are 2 ways to go about this, that are practical.
1) Add molar amounts of potassium hydroxide, sodium hydoxide, lye, NaOH, KOH, whatever you want to use. Your iron hydroxide will precipitate, filter, and dry in the oven at a few hundred degrees. This yeilds oxide.
2) Dump in some ammonia solution. This will precipirate the oxide.
Now, magnetite is a complex of FeO and Fe2O3, this means you have to prepare FeCl2 and FeCl3 solution. You can either reduce some FeCl3 solution to FeCl2, or whatever you want to do. One could oxidise their FeCl2 solution to FeCl3 with H2O2 or similar if they didnt want to let it sit in the air for a while. Now, I suggest you mix equimolar amounts of this, and add ammonia. Lots of ammonia. This will precipitate very small particle sized magnetite. This yeilds a more energetic thermite reaction...
Aluminum: Take some Al chunks, pop cans, whatever, and take an angle grinder to them. Something that spins really fast is good. Catch it all in a garbage bag. Make thermite. Or, buy it. Whatever works for you.
Other oxides can be used, in order to isolate their respective metals. Some notable and easy to obtain oxides: CuO, B2O3, MnO2. Copper oxide and aluminum behaves more like a flash powder, and can be quite violent. B2O3 thermite isnt that energetic, though you get boron powder when your done. MnO2 thermite isn't that special, though you can get MnO2 free from old batteries. A D cell battery will yeild about 70g of it!
And, why not make your own chlorates? You can make them quite easily with a homade electrolysis power supply that consists of an old computer power supply, a resistor, and some posts. To obtain sodium chlorate, electrolyse NaCl. Potassium chlorate? KCl. That is essentially it. Naturally, it is more complex, with some subtle nuances that can be annoying, but its quite easy if you really want some.
*PURE FeCl2 is actually a very light yellow. Green solutions etc. are usually due to impurities. These include chromium, and others.
Re: Thermite
, Mon Feb 27 2006, 06:20AM
thermite is coming up a lot lately in my welding class. you can get Al powder at paint stores? i think it would be worth a try
i hear using a spakler is good means of ignition btw
, Mon Feb 27 2006, 06:20AM
thermite is coming up a lot lately in my welding class. you can get Al powder at paint stores? i think it would be worth a try
i hear using a spakler is good means of ignition btw
Re: Thermite
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Mon Feb 27 2006, 09:16AM
If you need Fe2O3, you don't really have to do a lot of work.
Just get a pyrex dish, a small glass plate that fits in the dish, some pennies to space the plate off the bottom of the dish, some water, and steel wool. Place the wool on the glass slide in the dish spaced off the bottom, add some water to wet the wool, and add water so that the wool 'wicks' the water.
This rusts REALLY FAST. This will give you the Alpha Iron Hydroxide/Iron Oxide....but you want the Gamma species. So take the yellowish orange powder you've let oxidize, put it in a metal pan and heat until the oxide turns deep red. Stirring with a heat resistant rod helps convert all the Alpha to Gamma.
Using soft glass to stir is not recommended, it thermally shocks and cracks.
Heat source: propane torch, simple!
You can have several hundred grams in a couple of days with this, also there is no NaCl or KCl invloved!
Aluminum is not so easy. Commonly available Al is an alloy which does not burn easily. Also, depending on how hard its sanded, it can be very hot and melt a big hole in a trash bag.
Aluminum alloys were extremely hard for me to ignite in the thermite reaction, this is why I said it needed to be boosted with Mg. Simply putting a Mg ribbon in the mixture does not work because it extinguishes when it gets to the thermite.
No I did not mix it wrong. I have a quad beam ballance and I know chem. I am just stating that commonly available Al is 6061T6 which is a pain to ignite!!!! and hard as steel in my opinion!! (IT DULLS CARBIDE!)
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Mon Feb 27 2006, 09:16AM
If you need Fe2O3, you don't really have to do a lot of work.
Just get a pyrex dish, a small glass plate that fits in the dish, some pennies to space the plate off the bottom of the dish, some water, and steel wool. Place the wool on the glass slide in the dish spaced off the bottom, add some water to wet the wool, and add water so that the wool 'wicks' the water.
This rusts REALLY FAST. This will give you the Alpha Iron Hydroxide/Iron Oxide....but you want the Gamma species. So take the yellowish orange powder you've let oxidize, put it in a metal pan and heat until the oxide turns deep red. Stirring with a heat resistant rod helps convert all the Alpha to Gamma.
Using soft glass to stir is not recommended, it thermally shocks and cracks.
Heat source: propane torch, simple!
You can have several hundred grams in a couple of days with this, also there is no NaCl or KCl invloved!
Aluminum is not so easy. Commonly available Al is an alloy which does not burn easily. Also, depending on how hard its sanded, it can be very hot and melt a big hole in a trash bag.
Aluminum alloys were extremely hard for me to ignite in the thermite reaction, this is why I said it needed to be boosted with Mg. Simply putting a Mg ribbon in the mixture does not work because it extinguishes when it gets to the thermite.
No I did not mix it wrong. I have a quad beam ballance and I know chem. I am just stating that commonly available Al is 6061T6 which is a pain to ignite!!!! and hard as steel in my opinion!! (IT DULLS CARBIDE!)
Re: Thermite
ChemTechLabs, Fri Mar 03 2006, 05:49AM
another way i though of helping ignite the thermite, is going out and buying one of those fire-starter blocks from Canadian Tire or wherever and scraping some Mg off the block right into the mixture and then use an small jet torch to light the Mg strip.... As for getting the Al, paint stores? and the FeO, i tried the steel wool in 2 yogurt containers.. one with vinigar and one with Hydrogen peroxide or rubbing alcohol, (one or the other, I cant remember which) they'd probably both work though. But both tests were actually quite effective. I used that FeO and some filed Al off a block and tried that, but it did not work. I probably didn't have it hot enough to light... But anyway, do those methods sound correct?
ChemTechLabs, Fri Mar 03 2006, 05:49AM
another way i though of helping ignite the thermite, is going out and buying one of those fire-starter blocks from Canadian Tire or wherever and scraping some Mg off the block right into the mixture and then use an small jet torch to light the Mg strip.... As for getting the Al, paint stores? and the FeO, i tried the steel wool in 2 yogurt containers.. one with vinigar and one with Hydrogen peroxide or rubbing alcohol, (one or the other, I cant remember which) they'd probably both work though. But both tests were actually quite effective. I used that FeO and some filed Al off a block and tried that, but it did not work. I probably didn't have it hot enough to light... But anyway, do those methods sound correct?
Re: Thermite
Colin 99, Sat Mar 25 2006, 07:10PM
Has anyone else tried the Iron oxide from a pottery supply store? That is what I used but I was dissapointed with the results.
Colin 99, Sat Mar 25 2006, 07:10PM
Has anyone else tried the Iron oxide from a pottery supply store? That is what I used but I was dissapointed with the results.
Re: Thermite
Wilson, Sun Mar 26 2006, 12:24AM
i have some pottery Fw2O3 which i would like to try, but no Al powder :(
Wilson, Sun Mar 26 2006, 12:24AM
i have some pottery Fw2O3 which i would like to try, but no Al powder :(
Re: Thermite
Wolfram, Sun Mar 26 2006, 12:31AM
I was quite successfull with iron oxide from a pottery. I used magnalium instead of aluminium though, maybe that had something to do with it.
Wolfram, Sun Mar 26 2006, 12:31AM
I was quite successfull with iron oxide from a pottery. I used magnalium instead of aluminium though, maybe that had something to do with it.
Re: Thermite
Simon Barsinister, Sun Mar 26 2006, 01:06AM
I know ratio was the question, but how about using ferrite for the iron oxide component?
Rich
Simon Barsinister, Sun Mar 26 2006, 01:06AM
I know ratio was the question, but how about using ferrite for the iron oxide component?
Rich
Re: Thermite
, Sat Apr 08 2006, 05:06AM
where should i go about getting a decent quantity of Al powder.? i am quite interested in thermite reactions
, Sat Apr 08 2006, 05:06AM
where should i go about getting a decent quantity of Al powder.? i am quite interested in thermite reactions
Re: Thermite
ChemTechLabs, Tue Apr 25 2006, 05:09AM
Well in answer to your question about the Al powder.. I've head that you can get some at paint supply stores cause they sometimes mix it with metalic paints but i've already checked a few stores and was unsuccessful :( so if you can't find any there, i suggest using a lbock of Al and grinding it down with a grinder and into a bag.
ChemTechLabs, Tue Apr 25 2006, 05:09AM
Well in answer to your question about the Al powder.. I've head that you can get some at paint supply stores cause they sometimes mix it with metalic paints but i've already checked a few stores and was unsuccessful :( so if you can't find any there, i suggest using a lbock of Al and grinding it down with a grinder and into a bag.
Re: Thermite
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Apr 25 2006, 07:09PM
I have done this successfully with available materials. I have posted the majority of the knowledge to get it lighted.
A Mg fuse will NOT work right into Thermite UNLESS you have very high grade Al powder, which is hard to get!
If you want to experiment and do it in a somewhat save mannor, put it mix in small clay flower pots with the dish on the bottom. The pot will crack, but you won't have burn holes in the concrete like I have.
You can follow my guidelines and you will get decent results.
Also, Thermite does not work well in a pile, get rid of that thought immediately! It needs to be confined in a container like a crucible for maximum combustion.
Otherwise, this thread is going nowhere. I posted my homework, its not that hard to do some of your own.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Apr 25 2006, 07:09PM
I have done this successfully with available materials. I have posted the majority of the knowledge to get it lighted.
A Mg fuse will NOT work right into Thermite UNLESS you have very high grade Al powder, which is hard to get!
If you want to experiment and do it in a somewhat save mannor, put it mix in small clay flower pots with the dish on the bottom. The pot will crack, but you won't have burn holes in the concrete like I have.
You can follow my guidelines and you will get decent results.
Also, Thermite does not work well in a pile, get rid of that thought immediately! It needs to be confined in a container like a crucible for maximum combustion.
Otherwise, this thread is going nowhere. I posted my homework, its not that hard to do some of your own.
Re: Thermite
Binx, Sat Feb 24 2007, 10:05PM
Well thermite is not very hard you need to mix a 50/50 mesh of Aluminum powder and Iron Oxide {weight for weight)
Add some magnesium shreddings so it burns evenly.
Magnesium ribbon is great for a fuse! Just need something like a pencil torch to light it.
United Nuclear is a very good place to pick up what you need. Be careful though the heat isn't directable in its powder form and you can easily get badly burned...
I hope that helps!
Binx, Sat Feb 24 2007, 10:05PM
Well thermite is not very hard you need to mix a 50/50 mesh of Aluminum powder and Iron Oxide {weight for weight)
Add some magnesium shreddings so it burns evenly.
Magnesium ribbon is great for a fuse! Just need something like a pencil torch to light it.
United Nuclear is a very good place to pick up what you need. Be careful though the heat isn't directable in its powder form and you can easily get badly burned...
I hope that helps!
Re: Thermite
GreySoul, Sun Feb 25 2007, 02:32AM
ever seen Brainaics? A terracota flower pot with a thick sheet of paper in the bottom makes a nice time release for thermite.
Also, check your local welding supplier for thermite and igniter, it's MUCH cheaper than buying it from United Nuclear. Thermite is often used for welding (brazing?) heavy cast iron parts together.
-Doug
GreySoul, Sun Feb 25 2007, 02:32AM
ever seen Brainaics? A terracota flower pot with a thick sheet of paper in the bottom makes a nice time release for thermite.
Also, check your local welding supplier for thermite and igniter, it's MUCH cheaper than buying it from United Nuclear. Thermite is often used for welding (brazing?) heavy cast iron parts together.
-Doug
Re: Thermite
alchemy101, Wed May 09 2007, 06:28AM
I thought i might chime in (first post!)
I do thermite reactions from time to time in chemlab. I like to pretend i'm doing enthalpy reactions - really i'm just having fun.
The trick:
I have found that the ratios of iron oxide to al powder are really quite unimportant, as long as the two are well mixed and powdered. The easiest way to get them going is glycerine/potassium permangenate mixture (spontaneous combustion due to exothermic reaction).
You will most probably have a nice stream of molten iron flowing out of your crucible*.
* Please do not try this inside. Do not try this near your kids/pets/curtains. Actually, don't try it at all. But it _is_ fun.
Note: If the thermite reaction is not starting, add more glycerine/Kmn03, with something LONG. Do NOT put your hand above the crucible, unless you would like it to flow out as well. When it starts, it is very hard to stop. If you have a fume cupboard, try doing it in there. Douse with steam/N2 mix if stop desired. It will reignite as soon as you allow oxygen in again - like a time bomb.
So be careful, and start with small quantities.
alchemy101, Wed May 09 2007, 06:28AM
I thought i might chime in (first post!)
I do thermite reactions from time to time in chemlab. I like to pretend i'm doing enthalpy reactions - really i'm just having fun.
The trick:
I have found that the ratios of iron oxide to al powder are really quite unimportant, as long as the two are well mixed and powdered. The easiest way to get them going is glycerine/potassium permangenate mixture (spontaneous combustion due to exothermic reaction).
You will most probably have a nice stream of molten iron flowing out of your crucible*.
* Please do not try this inside. Do not try this near your kids/pets/curtains. Actually, don't try it at all. But it _is_ fun.
Note: If the thermite reaction is not starting, add more glycerine/Kmn03, with something LONG. Do NOT put your hand above the crucible, unless you would like it to flow out as well. When it starts, it is very hard to stop. If you have a fume cupboard, try doing it in there. Douse with steam/N2 mix if stop desired. It will reignite as soon as you allow oxygen in again - like a time bomb.
So be careful, and start with small quantities.
Re: Thermite
sparky, Wed May 23 2007, 03:53AM
I used Iron Oxide from a pottery store and Aluminum powder. I mixed the two 50/50 ratio then added Potassium Permanganate for a starter. Oh this worked REALLY REALLY well!!!
CRAZY!! Another cool Thermite you could try is black Copper Oxide and Aluminum powder 50/50 -- this stuff explodes when struck by a bullet or initiated by a fuse.... it velocity is about 1.2 km/sec --- and rivals some flash powders!! Its expensive stuff to make - but it is sure a fun science project.
sparky, Wed May 23 2007, 03:53AM
I used Iron Oxide from a pottery store and Aluminum powder. I mixed the two 50/50 ratio then added Potassium Permanganate for a starter. Oh this worked REALLY REALLY well!!!
CRAZY!! Another cool Thermite you could try is black Copper Oxide and Aluminum powder 50/50 -- this stuff explodes when struck by a bullet or initiated by a fuse.... it velocity is about 1.2 km/sec --- and rivals some flash powders!! Its expensive stuff to make - but it is sure a fun science project.
Re: Thermite
Bored Chemist, Wed May 23 2007, 05:51AM
copper III, Are you sure?
Bored Chemist, Wed May 23 2007, 05:51AM
copper III, Are you sure?
Re: Thermite
sparky, Wed May 23 2007, 05:56AM
yes, positive - black Copper Oxide. I've tested this energetic thermite mix out and it is awesome - can be a bit hard to ignite but IF you get the right amount of heat - KAAWOOOMPH ---- you get a pyroclastic cloud of copper crystals and white hot shower of sparks. Its amazing stuff!
sparky, Wed May 23 2007, 05:56AM
yes, positive - black Copper Oxide. I've tested this energetic thermite mix out and it is awesome - can be a bit hard to ignite but IF you get the right amount of heat - KAAWOOOMPH ---- you get a pyroclastic cloud of copper crystals and white hot shower of sparks. Its amazing stuff!
Re: Thermite
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed May 23 2007, 07:21AM
Copper's states are +1 and +2
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed May 23 2007, 07:21AM
Copper's states are +1 and +2
Re: Thermite
ragnar, Wed May 23 2007, 10:05AM
I'm pretty sure you mean cupric oxide (copper II oxide), and it's black... compounds with copper III are, erm... not common, to say the least.
The only reference I can find to anything copper(III)-related is potassium hexafluorocuprate (K3CuF6).
ragnar, Wed May 23 2007, 10:05AM
I'm pretty sure you mean cupric oxide (copper II oxide), and it's black... compounds with copper III are, erm... not common, to say the least.
The only reference I can find to anything copper(III)-related is potassium hexafluorocuprate (K3CuF6).
Re: Thermite
Bored Chemist, Wed May 23 2007, 05:25PM
Still sure?
Bored Chemist, Wed May 23 2007, 05:25PM
Still sure?
Re: Thermite
sparky, Wed May 23 2007, 11:33PM
must be Copper II Oxide - CuO2 + Al --- please try this out and see the results yourselves.
sparky, Wed May 23 2007, 11:33PM
must be Copper II Oxide - CuO2 + Al --- please try this out and see the results yourselves.
Re: Thermite
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Thu May 24 2007, 02:53AM
you mean:
3 CuO + 2 Al ------------> Al2O3 + 3 Cu.
Much better now.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Thu May 24 2007, 02:53AM
you mean:
3 CuO + 2 Al ------------> Al2O3 + 3 Cu.
Much better now.
Re: Thermite
Nucleophobe, Thu May 24 2007, 04:28AM
Anyone ever tried to cast anything from a thermite reaction?
Nucleophobe, Thu May 24 2007, 04:28AM
Anyone ever tried to cast anything from a thermite reaction?
Re: Thermite
sparky, Thu May 24 2007, 04:57AM
download the zip file and inside there will be a movie of the CuO + Al exotic thermite targets being shot - notice the brown cloud of copper crystals --- same thing happens when you heat up this material too!!
sparky, Thu May 24 2007, 04:57AM
download the zip file and inside there will be a movie of the CuO + Al exotic thermite targets being shot - notice the brown cloud of copper crystals --- same thing happens when you heat up this material too!!
Re: Thermite
uzzors2k, Thu May 24 2007, 03:30PM
The link doesn't work, could you use a different server or just attach it?
uzzors2k, Thu May 24 2007, 03:30PM
The link doesn't work, could you use a different server or just attach it?
Re: Thermite
ragnar, Thu May 24 2007, 10:53PM
Go here, to the geocities page and follow the link. Geocities doesn't like hotlinkers.
ragnar, Thu May 24 2007, 10:53PM
Go here, to the geocities page and follow the link. Geocities doesn't like hotlinkers.
Re: Thermite
uzzors2k, Fri May 25 2007, 01:21PM
Thanks Matt. Some pretty rad videos there. I've never had the courage to do any pyrochemistry myself but it looks so fun.
uzzors2k, Fri May 25 2007, 01:21PM
Thanks Matt. Some pretty rad videos there. I've never had the courage to do any pyrochemistry myself but it looks so fun.
Re: Thermite
sparky, Fri May 25 2007, 03:03PM
This exotic CuO + Al powder thermite is quite insain stuff --- more incendiary than a true Thermite I think...
sparky, Fri May 25 2007, 03:03PM
This exotic CuO + Al powder thermite is quite insain stuff --- more incendiary than a true Thermite I think...
Re: Thermite
Shaun, Mon Jun 18 2007, 04:21AM
Ive found a good way to make iron oxide in large quantities (probly impure too) is to pack steel wool in a metal tube, force air through it, or better yet oxygen, and light it. It's almost as much fun to watch as the thermite is. It makes a mix of the two oxides, but works very well.
Shaun, Mon Jun 18 2007, 04:21AM
Ive found a good way to make iron oxide in large quantities (probly impure too) is to pack steel wool in a metal tube, force air through it, or better yet oxygen, and light it. It's almost as much fun to watch as the thermite is. It makes a mix of the two oxides, but works very well.
Re: Thermite
Swany, Wed Jun 20 2007, 05:25PM
Expensive though. Easier to buy buckets of rust at hardware stores as a cement colorant.
I seriously doubt that the CuO/Al 'thermite' pops from a rifle bullet, loosely confined at 1900m/s. Flash powders don't go that fast, techincally they arent high explosives either so you couldnt measure a detonation front, well, LOTS of FP would detonate but for all practical purposes.... ANFO at 2in diameter and low density I would expect to go that fast, not CuO/Al.
Swany, Wed Jun 20 2007, 05:25PM
Expensive though. Easier to buy buckets of rust at hardware stores as a cement colorant.
I seriously doubt that the CuO/Al 'thermite' pops from a rifle bullet, loosely confined at 1900m/s. Flash powders don't go that fast, techincally they arent high explosives either so you couldnt measure a detonation front, well, LOTS of FP would detonate but for all practical purposes.... ANFO at 2in diameter and low density I would expect to go that fast, not CuO/Al.
Re: Thermite
sparky, Thu Jun 21 2007, 12:47AM
Actually I've tested CuO/Al thermite and it will ignite from a .22 LR FMJ loosely packed. The speed of initiation is very very fast -- on par with flash -- I put 100 gr inside a cardboard tube and shot it with a .223 FMJ and the tube exploded! The speed of the CuO/Al thermite was calculated on Science madness - website. Some people say confined CuO/Al thermite burns at 1200m/sec while others have reported nearly 1850m/Sec confined... so I'm just stating that this stuff is pretty awesome, can can ignite simply by moderate impact. Red Lead/ Al is also another very energetic mix as well...
sparky, Thu Jun 21 2007, 12:47AM
Actually I've tested CuO/Al thermite and it will ignite from a .22 LR FMJ loosely packed. The speed of initiation is very very fast -- on par with flash -- I put 100 gr inside a cardboard tube and shot it with a .223 FMJ and the tube exploded! The speed of the CuO/Al thermite was calculated on Science madness - website. Some people say confined CuO/Al thermite burns at 1200m/sec while others have reported nearly 1850m/Sec confined... so I'm just stating that this stuff is pretty awesome, can can ignite simply by moderate impact. Red Lead/ Al is also another very energetic mix as well...
Re: Thermite
Bored Chemist, Thu Jun 21 2007, 10:46AM
OK, since I live in Englnd it's no surprise that I don't know much about guns. Having said that I would expect that if I packed a cardboard tube with sand then shot it, the tube would explode. That doesn't mean sand is explosive. Did you hear a second bang from the tube?
Bored Chemist, Thu Jun 21 2007, 10:46AM
OK, since I live in Englnd it's no surprise that I don't know much about guns. Having said that I would expect that if I packed a cardboard tube with sand then shot it, the tube would explode. That doesn't mean sand is explosive. Did you hear a second bang from the tube?
Re: Thermite
sparky, Fri Jun 22 2007, 07:39AM
Absolutely! The amount of heat energy causes a loud "bang" sound even with a nearly silent .22 rifle. Kinda reminded me of a cap discharge. Its impressive stuff - try making some yourself!
There are plenty of videos out there that demonstrate the "explosive" nature of Al/CuO thermite. YouTube has some :)
You need fine Al with CuO 50/50 mix... this stuff will ignite with a fuse if it will burn hot enough. I use Thermalite fuse - commercial grade slow stuff... burns really hot!
sparky, Fri Jun 22 2007, 07:39AM
Absolutely! The amount of heat energy causes a loud "bang" sound even with a nearly silent .22 rifle. Kinda reminded me of a cap discharge. Its impressive stuff - try making some yourself!
There are plenty of videos out there that demonstrate the "explosive" nature of Al/CuO thermite. YouTube has some :)
You need fine Al with CuO 50/50 mix... this stuff will ignite with a fuse if it will burn hot enough. I use Thermalite fuse - commercial grade slow stuff... burns really hot!
Re: Thermite
Bored Chemist, Fri Jun 22 2007, 08:38AM
I gave up making explosives when I was a kid after an incident where I was lucky not to get hurt so I think I will give this one a miss too.
Just for the record here in the UK I can't walk into the supermarket and buy a fuse.
Bored Chemist, Fri Jun 22 2007, 08:38AM
I gave up making explosives when I was a kid after an incident where I was lucky not to get hurt so I think I will give this one a miss too.
Just for the record here in the UK I can't walk into the supermarket and buy a fuse.
Re: Thermite
Nucleophobe, Fri Jun 22 2007, 07:01PM
CuO Al on YouTube
Wow, that is impressive. What do you get you CuO from, sparky?
Nucleophobe, Fri Jun 22 2007, 07:01PM
CuO Al on YouTube
Wow, that is impressive. What do you get you CuO from, sparky?
Re: Thermite
GreySoul, Fri Jun 22 2007, 08:38PM
.22 lr FMJ?
...
maybe coper flashed... but 22 caliber rimfire bullets don't come in a "FMJ" variety last I was looking.
A .22 lr round is plenty to ignite many 2-part explosive "targets". aka reactive Targets.
-Doug
GreySoul, Fri Jun 22 2007, 08:38PM
.22 lr FMJ?
...
maybe coper flashed... but 22 caliber rimfire bullets don't come in a "FMJ" variety last I was looking.
A .22 lr round is plenty to ignite many 2-part explosive "targets". aka reactive Targets.
-Doug
Re: Thermite
sparky, Fri Jun 22 2007, 10:11PM
This what happens when you suddenly shock Al/CuO thermite with a supersonic projectile!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkQVUMzJ4eI
.22 Lr plated bullet is what i meant --- .22 lr doesn't come in FMJ- hollow point or just about any high speed .22lr round will do. I buy bulk CuO from pottery supply places.... its heavy stuff and comes in regularly.
sparky, Fri Jun 22 2007, 10:11PM
This what happens when you suddenly shock Al/CuO thermite with a supersonic projectile!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkQVUMzJ4eI
.22 Lr plated bullet is what i meant --- .22 lr doesn't come in FMJ- hollow point or just about any high speed .22lr round will do. I buy bulk CuO from pottery supply places.... its heavy stuff and comes in regularly.
Re: Thermite
thermite, Mon Feb 18 2008, 12:34AM
Not to sound deprecating, most replies are like: Its not that hard ...
Show us your procedure in a youtube video.
We know that many businesses are being promoted by hobby marketing. It is very hard to tell who is who.
First of all, paint Aluminum is the MOST UNSUITABLE form of Al for thermite. It is flakes. It possibly has organics that can cause it to blow in your face. The filings are not suitable either and they can injure your lungs. The grinding produces material that has non-uniform morphology and heavily contaminated by the alumina or silicon carbide of the wheel. Also if there are organics, then it will blow in your face.
Based on these solid facts, of which I am 100% sure, I am not sure if the promotions are real experience or speculations.
Please show us a video.
There are other fallacies and solutions which I will post at a later date.
However, there are a number of videos that have appeared recently on the internet on "thermate" in connection with Steven Jones and Eric Hufshmid where they claim that government or someone used this material to cut the pillars of WTC buildings.
They are mentioning something called nano-thermite which can evaporate the steel.
Check out how dangerous this material is and how useless an experiment is without a detailed analysis based on enthalpies, and a prolonged literature study.
I will work with anyone on these experiments, however, only along scientific lines and not just a thriller toy hobby.
thermite, Mon Feb 18 2008, 12:34AM
Not to sound deprecating, most replies are like: Its not that hard ...
Show us your procedure in a youtube video.
We know that many businesses are being promoted by hobby marketing. It is very hard to tell who is who.
First of all, paint Aluminum is the MOST UNSUITABLE form of Al for thermite. It is flakes. It possibly has organics that can cause it to blow in your face. The filings are not suitable either and they can injure your lungs. The grinding produces material that has non-uniform morphology and heavily contaminated by the alumina or silicon carbide of the wheel. Also if there are organics, then it will blow in your face.
Based on these solid facts, of which I am 100% sure, I am not sure if the promotions are real experience or speculations.
Please show us a video.
There are other fallacies and solutions which I will post at a later date.
However, there are a number of videos that have appeared recently on the internet on "thermate" in connection with Steven Jones and Eric Hufshmid where they claim that government or someone used this material to cut the pillars of WTC buildings.
They are mentioning something called nano-thermite which can evaporate the steel.
Check out how dangerous this material is and how useless an experiment is without a detailed analysis based on enthalpies, and a prolonged literature study.
I will work with anyone on these experiments, however, only along scientific lines and not just a thriller toy hobby.
Re: Thermite
Shaun, Mon Feb 18 2008, 06:03AM
"Organics" will not cause thermite to blow up in your face.
Shaun, Mon Feb 18 2008, 06:03AM
"Organics" will not cause thermite to blow up in your face.
Re: Thermite
ramses, Mon Feb 18 2008, 07:08PM
another decent method of Al production is to put equal parts salt and aluminum foil into an old blender, and blend repeatedly. then dissolve the salt out and, if desired, put the powder in a ball mill with harder than aluminum "balls". open it every half hour so that the aluminum doesn't go pyrophroic (catch on fire when exposed to air) and catch on fire when you open it eventually...
additionally, i think that sand is silica dioxide, and may work in a thermite reaction. you would probably need to spike it with Mg and KNO3, but that would yield pure-ish silicon...
ramses, Mon Feb 18 2008, 07:08PM
another decent method of Al production is to put equal parts salt and aluminum foil into an old blender, and blend repeatedly. then dissolve the salt out and, if desired, put the powder in a ball mill with harder than aluminum "balls". open it every half hour so that the aluminum doesn't go pyrophroic (catch on fire when exposed to air) and catch on fire when you open it eventually...
additionally, i think that sand is silica dioxide, and may work in a thermite reaction. you would probably need to spike it with Mg and KNO3, but that would yield pure-ish silicon...
Re: Thermite
MOT_man, Tue Feb 19 2008, 08:00AM
Yep, I know several kinds of thermite that work well. One combination that hasn't been discussed is energetic thermite. It is a mix of 50/50 Copper Oxide (black) and 300 mesh Aluminum powder. It acts explosively when ignited much like flash powder but with a shower of hot white fireballs and a copper vapour cloud. Very spectacular and totally legal! In fact we used this material for target spotting for long distance shooting - it will ignite from a .223 cal bullet striking it.
MOT_man, Tue Feb 19 2008, 08:00AM
Yep, I know several kinds of thermite that work well. One combination that hasn't been discussed is energetic thermite. It is a mix of 50/50 Copper Oxide (black) and 300 mesh Aluminum powder. It acts explosively when ignited much like flash powder but with a shower of hot white fireballs and a copper vapour cloud. Very spectacular and totally legal! In fact we used this material for target spotting for long distance shooting - it will ignite from a .223 cal bullet striking it.
Re: Thermite
Shaun, Wed Feb 20 2008, 01:19AM
Hmm, that "energetic thermite" sounds very cool indeed, MOT man. *searches Ebay for black copper oxide*
Shaun, Wed Feb 20 2008, 01:19AM
Hmm, that "energetic thermite" sounds very cool indeed, MOT man. *searches Ebay for black copper oxide*
Re: Thermite
Bryan, Thu Feb 21 2008, 09:07AM
I know I am new here hope everyone will welcome me but the big tests I have seen done with the thermite to get the reaction consistent they go to a junk yard and buy an old magnesium VW engine block and grind enough filings off and then mix in roughly 25 percent magnesium fine filings then they ignite it with magnesium strip paper or even a sparkler I've seen it lit with five sparklers all together buried half way and run like heck. from my understanding the added magnesium helps to ensure a full reaction just remember to clean the engine block before grinding you need to remove all old carbon and oil primarily oil.
Bryan, Thu Feb 21 2008, 09:07AM
I know I am new here hope everyone will welcome me but the big tests I have seen done with the thermite to get the reaction consistent they go to a junk yard and buy an old magnesium VW engine block and grind enough filings off and then mix in roughly 25 percent magnesium fine filings then they ignite it with magnesium strip paper or even a sparkler I've seen it lit with five sparklers all together buried half way and run like heck. from my understanding the added magnesium helps to ensure a full reaction just remember to clean the engine block before grinding you need to remove all old carbon and oil primarily oil.
Re: Thermite
thermite, Fri Feb 22 2008, 02:53AM
Now explain shaun why you need to clean the oil because he said it wont blow in your face.
Forums and places that discuss thermite and incendiaries (I am not saying this one) were actually run by the intelligence agencies like FBI. Their primary method of using these honey pots to attract wouldbe terrorists, arsonists and criminals was to create such forums that they actually ran and had full control of.
Since 911, other type of agencies like CIA were in desperate need of PATSIES from islamic countries who they can frame and ship to guantanamo to satisfy the scare needed to maintain the false credibility in the "war on terror".
Under both these circumstances, the forum discussion will never get to the correct engineering applications and never be relevant to it. Rather it will in the former and the latter case, promote some glitter about it and some very primitive and obsolete and uneconomical techniques that would make real scientists blush with shame.
I have interest in thermite primarily for engineering applications. I am still waiting for a small study group where real engineering information can be exchanged and like an MS thesis or Phd thesis, the subject can be studied and techniques developed with safety and economics.
Let me add my last post to sharpen focus:
==============================
Not to sound deprecating, most replies are like: Its not that hard ...
Show us your procedure in a youtube video.
We know that many businesses are being promoted by hobby marketing. It is very hard to tell who is who.
First of all, paint Aluminum is the MOST UNSUITABLE form of Al for thermite. It is flakes. It possibly has organics that can cause it to blow in your face. The filings are not suitable either and they can injure your lungs. The grinding produces material that has non-uniform morphology and heavily contaminated by the alumina or silicon carbide of the wheel. Also if there are organics, then it will blow in your face.
Based on these solid facts, of which I am 100% sure, I am not sure if the promotions are real experience or speculations.
Please show us a video.
There are other fallacies and solutions which I will post at a later date.
However, there are a number of videos that have appeared recently on the internet on "thermate" in connection with Steven Jones and Eric Hufshmid where they claim that government or someone used this material to cut the pillars of WTC buildings.
They are mentioning something called nano-thermite which can evaporate the steel.
Check out how dangerous this material is and how useless an experiment is without a detailed analysis based on enthalpies, and a prolonged literature study.
I will work with anyone on these experiments, however, only along scientific lines and not just a thriller toy hobby.
I urge everyone (if you are in serious engineering development) , lest you are visited by FBI, to have your defense ready. Namely, deposit an affidavit with a judge, on your intents or call your local fire department and discuss in writing with them.
Or president bush in desperate need of "terrorists" may declare you a "non-enemy combatant" and ship you to guantanamo.
cheers
thermite, Fri Feb 22 2008, 02:53AM
Bryan wrote ...
I know I am new here hope everyone will welcome me but the big tests I have seen done with the thermite to get the reaction consistent they go to a junk yard and buy an old magnesium VW engine block and grind enough filings off and then mix in roughly 25 percent magnesium fine filings then they ignite it with magnesium strip paper or even a sparkler I've seen it lit with five sparklers all together buried half way and run like heck. from my understanding the added magnesium helps to ensure a full reaction just remember to clean the engine block before grinding you need to remove all old carbon and oil primarily oil.
I know I am new here hope everyone will welcome me but the big tests I have seen done with the thermite to get the reaction consistent they go to a junk yard and buy an old magnesium VW engine block and grind enough filings off and then mix in roughly 25 percent magnesium fine filings then they ignite it with magnesium strip paper or even a sparkler I've seen it lit with five sparklers all together buried half way and run like heck. from my understanding the added magnesium helps to ensure a full reaction just remember to clean the engine block before grinding you need to remove all old carbon and oil primarily oil.
Now explain shaun why you need to clean the oil because he said it wont blow in your face.
Forums and places that discuss thermite and incendiaries (I am not saying this one) were actually run by the intelligence agencies like FBI. Their primary method of using these honey pots to attract wouldbe terrorists, arsonists and criminals was to create such forums that they actually ran and had full control of.
Since 911, other type of agencies like CIA were in desperate need of PATSIES from islamic countries who they can frame and ship to guantanamo to satisfy the scare needed to maintain the false credibility in the "war on terror".
Under both these circumstances, the forum discussion will never get to the correct engineering applications and never be relevant to it. Rather it will in the former and the latter case, promote some glitter about it and some very primitive and obsolete and uneconomical techniques that would make real scientists blush with shame.
I have interest in thermite primarily for engineering applications. I am still waiting for a small study group where real engineering information can be exchanged and like an MS thesis or Phd thesis, the subject can be studied and techniques developed with safety and economics.
Let me add my last post to sharpen focus:
==============================
Not to sound deprecating, most replies are like: Its not that hard ...
Show us your procedure in a youtube video.
We know that many businesses are being promoted by hobby marketing. It is very hard to tell who is who.
First of all, paint Aluminum is the MOST UNSUITABLE form of Al for thermite. It is flakes. It possibly has organics that can cause it to blow in your face. The filings are not suitable either and they can injure your lungs. The grinding produces material that has non-uniform morphology and heavily contaminated by the alumina or silicon carbide of the wheel. Also if there are organics, then it will blow in your face.
Based on these solid facts, of which I am 100% sure, I am not sure if the promotions are real experience or speculations.
Please show us a video.
There are other fallacies and solutions which I will post at a later date.
However, there are a number of videos that have appeared recently on the internet on "thermate" in connection with Steven Jones and Eric Hufshmid where they claim that government or someone used this material to cut the pillars of WTC buildings.
They are mentioning something called nano-thermite which can evaporate the steel.
Check out how dangerous this material is and how useless an experiment is without a detailed analysis based on enthalpies, and a prolonged literature study.
I will work with anyone on these experiments, however, only along scientific lines and not just a thriller toy hobby.
I urge everyone (if you are in serious engineering development) , lest you are visited by FBI, to have your defense ready. Namely, deposit an affidavit with a judge, on your intents or call your local fire department and discuss in writing with them.
Or president bush in desperate need of "terrorists" may declare you a "non-enemy combatant" and ship you to guantanamo.
cheers
Re: Thermite
MOT_man, Fri Feb 22 2008, 03:03AM
"paint grade aluminum" is unsuitable for Thermite....
Really?! I'm using a paint/epoxy grade Aluminum for my reactions and it works very nicely. Maybe I'm thinking that epoxy grade is 400 mesh -- anodized but still nicely flammable :)
MOT_man, Fri Feb 22 2008, 03:03AM
"paint grade aluminum" is unsuitable for Thermite....
Really?! I'm using a paint/epoxy grade Aluminum for my reactions and it works very nicely. Maybe I'm thinking that epoxy grade is 400 mesh -- anodized but still nicely flammable :)
Re: Thermite
thermite, Fri Feb 22 2008, 03:36AM
The flake was too much oxide on its surface and is wasteful. the flake is made by a process to prevent agglomeration and that requires adsorbed organics. Why dont you list the manufacturer, name, address phone no and also a video of thermite being done by you step by step. You dont have to show your face if privacy is the issue.
anodized ??? does nt make sense for anyone to anodize flakes. how to make electrical contact ?
The best particle shape for thermite is spherical with a special type of surface, but i will drop that info after you show what you are doing.
Put your exact recipe and method first in a writeup and then plz make a video if you can. I can try to duplicate your exact method if you give me all the methods and material sources, manufacturer name etc.
thermite, Fri Feb 22 2008, 03:36AM
MOT_man wrote ...
"paint grade aluminum" is unsuitable for Thermite....
Really?! I'm using a paint/epoxy grade Aluminum for my reactions and it works very nicely. Maybe I'm thinking that epoxy grade is 400 mesh -- anodized but still nicely flammable :)
"paint grade aluminum" is unsuitable for Thermite....
Really?! I'm using a paint/epoxy grade Aluminum for my reactions and it works very nicely. Maybe I'm thinking that epoxy grade is 400 mesh -- anodized but still nicely flammable :)
The flake was too much oxide on its surface and is wasteful. the flake is made by a process to prevent agglomeration and that requires adsorbed organics. Why dont you list the manufacturer, name, address phone no and also a video of thermite being done by you step by step. You dont have to show your face if privacy is the issue.
anodized ??? does nt make sense for anyone to anodize flakes. how to make electrical contact ?
The best particle shape for thermite is spherical with a special type of surface, but i will drop that info after you show what you are doing.
Put your exact recipe and method first in a writeup and then plz make a video if you can. I can try to duplicate your exact method if you give me all the methods and material sources, manufacturer name etc.
Re: Thermite
Weston, Fri Feb 22 2008, 03:37AM
you can also produce tungsten with this reaction.
Weston, Fri Feb 22 2008, 03:37AM
you can also produce tungsten with this reaction.
Re: Thermite
thermite, Fri Feb 22 2008, 03:45AM
thermite, Fri Feb 22 2008, 03:45AM
Weston wrote ...
you can also produce tungsten with this reaction.
but he has to give you the exact manufacturer of the flake before you "CAN" try it.you can also produce tungsten with this reaction.
Re: Thermite
Bjørn, Fri Feb 22 2008, 09:30AM
The thermite reaction is quite simple and we have several old threads in the archives. It is unlikely that anything new will come of this thread so I am closing it.
Bjørn, Fri Feb 22 2008, 09:30AM
The thermite reaction is quite simple and we have several old threads in the archives. It is unlikely that anything new will come of this thread so I am closing it.
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