Chlorate boosters for thermite
thermite, Sat Feb 23 2008, 03:20AMI know its said we know a lot about thermite.
The reaction is trivial to write, just like atom bomb U235 + neutrons = fissile products + energy.
It is not trivial to conduct reaction by design and safely.
Those who know it guard their knowledge jealously. those who get to learn from the national labs at the expense of tax payer money deny those very tax payers knowledge and consider it their personal property and jealously agitate and smoulder at the spread of knowledge.
So let me take it piece by piece.
If the literature is not meant to mislead, then chlorate boosters are mentioned a lot.
I have heard stories where someone milling potassium perchlorate KClO3 with MnO2 blew his hand. Recall this was the common mixture for the lab prep of oxygen.
I am hoping for a collective effort to first understand rigorously the properties, structure and nature of these chlorates and their efficient preparation.
I am sure there are tons of papers in JACS, and scandinavia and germany where the europeans developed this technology using the money stolen from various colonies of lesser races in asia and africa.
cheers
Its time for sharing back.
As I said, there is a virtual apartheid in the US. The public libraries have what should really be called porn or adult books and movies.
There is very little technical resources. Not even the american journals are available online in public libraries. you have to be member of that exclusive club of government contractors to get the funds for those resources.
cheers
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Billybobjoe, Sat Feb 23 2008, 04:54PM
Call me ignorant, but I nearly every post you have made on these forums so far has been unclear to me. Perhaps a lesson on English composition and organization would help? I think maybe what you're trying to say makes sense in your mind but when typed it ends up with huge gaps in information and no actual questions.
Also, every post seems to have some sort of rant on your thermite 9/11 conspiracy theory. Just a tip - I am not a mod but I've lurked on the forums enough to sense a ban if you keep this up. I'm sure there are forums that deal with this topic - but 4HV is not one of them, and no one seems to be buying into the theory.
EDIT - I just noticed your signature thread - perhaps this response would best be put there.
Billybobjoe, Sat Feb 23 2008, 04:54PM
Call me ignorant, but I nearly every post you have made on these forums so far has been unclear to me. Perhaps a lesson on English composition and organization would help? I think maybe what you're trying to say makes sense in your mind but when typed it ends up with huge gaps in information and no actual questions.
Also, every post seems to have some sort of rant on your thermite 9/11 conspiracy theory. Just a tip - I am not a mod but I've lurked on the forums enough to sense a ban if you keep this up. I'm sure there are forums that deal with this topic - but 4HV is not one of them, and no one seems to be buying into the theory.
EDIT - I just noticed your signature thread - perhaps this response would best be put there.
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Shaun, Sat Feb 23 2008, 08:45PM
Thanks for saying what I and I'm sure many others have been thinking, Billybobjoe. Sorry to start off on such an off-topic note, thermite, but I really am not sure what you are trying to find out here...
Shaun, Sat Feb 23 2008, 08:45PM
Thanks for saying what I and I'm sure many others have been thinking, Billybobjoe. Sorry to start off on such an off-topic note, thermite, but I really am not sure what you are trying to find out here...
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
thermite, Sat Feb 23 2008, 09:16PM
rant against freedom of speech ignored (only 2/60 complainers to suppress truth of "Benjamin Freedman speech" from views at this time). refocus activated. I have gotten supporting PMs also against this blatant attempt at CENSORSHIP.
======
I know its said we know a lot about thermite.
The reaction is trivial to write, just like atom bomb U235 + neutrons = fissile products + energy.
It is not trivial to conduct reaction by design and safely.
Those who know it guard their knowledge jealously. those who get to learn from the national labs at the expense of tax payer money deny those very tax payers knowledge and consider it their personal property and jealously agitate and smoulder at the spread of knowledge.
So let me take it piece by piece.
If the literature is not meant to mislead, then chlorate boosters are mentioned a lot.
I have heard stories where someone milling potassium perchlorate KClO3 with MnO2 blew his hand. Recall this was the common mixture for the lab prep of oxygen.
I am hoping for a collective effort to first understand rigorously the properties, structure and nature of these chlorates and their efficient preparation.
I am sure there are tons of papers in JACS, and scandinavia and germany where the europeans developed this technology using the money stolen from various colonies of lesser races in asia and africa.
cheers
Its time for sharing back.
As I said, there is a virtual apartheid in the US. The public libraries have what should really be called porn or adult books and movies.
There is very little technical resources. Not even the american journals are available online in public libraries. you have to be member of that exclusive club of government contractors to get the funds for those resources.
cheers
thermite, Sat Feb 23 2008, 09:16PM
rant against freedom of speech ignored (only 2/60 complainers to suppress truth of "Benjamin Freedman speech" from views at this time). refocus activated. I have gotten supporting PMs also against this blatant attempt at CENSORSHIP.
======
I know its said we know a lot about thermite.
The reaction is trivial to write, just like atom bomb U235 + neutrons = fissile products + energy.
It is not trivial to conduct reaction by design and safely.
Those who know it guard their knowledge jealously. those who get to learn from the national labs at the expense of tax payer money deny those very tax payers knowledge and consider it their personal property and jealously agitate and smoulder at the spread of knowledge.
So let me take it piece by piece.
If the literature is not meant to mislead, then chlorate boosters are mentioned a lot.
I have heard stories where someone milling potassium perchlorate KClO3 with MnO2 blew his hand. Recall this was the common mixture for the lab prep of oxygen.
I am hoping for a collective effort to first understand rigorously the properties, structure and nature of these chlorates and their efficient preparation.
I am sure there are tons of papers in JACS, and scandinavia and germany where the europeans developed this technology using the money stolen from various colonies of lesser races in asia and africa.
cheers
Its time for sharing back.
As I said, there is a virtual apartheid in the US. The public libraries have what should really be called porn or adult books and movies.
There is very little technical resources. Not even the american journals are available online in public libraries. you have to be member of that exclusive club of government contractors to get the funds for those resources.
cheers
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Weston, Sat Feb 23 2008, 10:40PM
did you just repeat the same message
? i agree with shaun. what is this thread about? will some admin just come and lock it allready?
Weston, Sat Feb 23 2008, 10:40PM
did you just repeat the same message
? i agree with shaun. what is this thread about? will some admin just come and lock it allready?Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Shaun, Sun Feb 24 2008, 04:01AM
To be fair, when I saw the thread title "Chlorate boosters for thermite" I thought:
"Well, I know about thermite, and I know about chlorates, and I'm going to college for chem engineering; this is probably something I could contribute to or should keep up on."
But this 9/11 conspiracy stuff just puts me off. It may be a topic worthy of discussion, but not here. This site is mainly for topics related to amateur science, and I'm glad to be part of it.
You say: "I am hoping for a collective effort to first understand rigorously the properties, structure and nature of these chlorates and their efficient preparation."
If you want to know the structure of a chlorate, try google. If you want to know preparation, boil some bleach.
There is a lot of cumulative knowledge here, and I'm sure those people would be glad to help if they didn't have to wade through the "Thermate-9/11-Dr. Jones-Conspiracy" swamp. I have nothing against you or freedom, but seriously, cool down man.
EDIT: I have no intention of getting into a flamewar, so this will be my last post to this thread barring a serious overhaul of the topic.
Shaun, Sun Feb 24 2008, 04:01AM
To be fair, when I saw the thread title "Chlorate boosters for thermite" I thought:
"Well, I know about thermite, and I know about chlorates, and I'm going to college for chem engineering; this is probably something I could contribute to or should keep up on."
But this 9/11 conspiracy stuff just puts me off. It may be a topic worthy of discussion, but not here. This site is mainly for topics related to amateur science, and I'm glad to be part of it.
You say: "I am hoping for a collective effort to first understand rigorously the properties, structure and nature of these chlorates and their efficient preparation."
If you want to know the structure of a chlorate, try google. If you want to know preparation, boil some bleach.
There is a lot of cumulative knowledge here, and I'm sure those people would be glad to help if they didn't have to wade through the "Thermate-9/11-Dr. Jones-Conspiracy" swamp. I have nothing against you or freedom, but seriously, cool down man.
EDIT: I have no intention of getting into a flamewar, so this will be my last post to this thread barring a serious overhaul of the topic.
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
thermite, Sun Feb 24 2008, 07:56AM
It is interesting that perchloric acid is more stable than the chloric acid, and therefore the KClO4 is more stable than KClO3. Is this instability only under acid conditions and not under base conditions ? can the chlorate be stabilized by adding lime or magnesia ? Any data on that ?
Why arent they using boosters of perchlorate ?
from wiki:
Calcium hypochlorite is a chemical compound with formula Ca(ClO)2. It is widely used for water treatment and as a bleaching agent (bleaching powder). This chemical is considered to be relatively stable and has greater available chlorine than sodium hypochlorite (liquid bleach).
why cant we use this as a booster ?
or the anhydrous calcium chlorate ?
We are getting close to the answers despite interruptions :)
thermite, Sun Feb 24 2008, 07:56AM
It is interesting that perchloric acid is more stable than the chloric acid, and therefore the KClO4 is more stable than KClO3. Is this instability only under acid conditions and not under base conditions ? can the chlorate be stabilized by adding lime or magnesia ? Any data on that ?
Why arent they using boosters of perchlorate ?
from wiki:
Calcium hypochlorite is a chemical compound with formula Ca(ClO)2. It is widely used for water treatment and as a bleaching agent (bleaching powder). This chemical is considered to be relatively stable and has greater available chlorine than sodium hypochlorite (liquid bleach).
why cant we use this as a booster ?
or the anhydrous calcium chlorate ?
We are getting close to the answers despite interruptions :)
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
rp181, Sun Feb 24 2008, 02:53PM
interesting bleach should be brought up. I was reading about it yesterday, it says its an oxidiser. Does this mean it can be used for rocket propellants?
rp181, Sun Feb 24 2008, 02:53PM
interesting bleach should be brought up. I was reading about it yesterday, it says its an oxidiser. Does this mean it can be used for rocket propellants?
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
ramses, Sun Feb 24 2008, 07:33PM
rp181- As i recall, it decays into NaCl (salt) and NaClO3, (sodium chlorate. so you end up with like 1 part chlorate and 5 parts salt. see this for details. other parts of that site violate the rules, but that page doesn't.
and thermite, depending on how much chlorate is added, you may just end up with a blend of uber sensitive flash powder and thermite...
ramses
ramses, Sun Feb 24 2008, 07:33PM
rp181- As i recall, it decays into NaCl (salt) and NaClO3, (sodium chlorate. so you end up with like 1 part chlorate and 5 parts salt. see this for details. other parts of that site violate the rules, but that page doesn't.
and thermite, depending on how much chlorate is added, you may just end up with a blend of uber sensitive flash powder and thermite...
ramses
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Backyard Skunkworks, Sun Feb 24 2008, 07:54PM
Sodium chlorate is pretty unstable I think, I remember one of Jolly Rogers' files talking about it as being pretty unstable and if EVEN HE thought it should be treated with respect it's gotta be pretty damn nasty, Jolly Roger was never one for good safety practices and as a result he lost a hand a few years ago. The MSDS lists it as a contact explosive!
Backyard Skunkworks, Sun Feb 24 2008, 07:54PM
Sodium chlorate is pretty unstable I think, I remember one of Jolly Rogers' files talking about it as being pretty unstable and if EVEN HE thought it should be treated with respect it's gotta be pretty damn nasty, Jolly Roger was never one for good safety practices and as a result he lost a hand a few years ago. The MSDS lists it as a contact explosive!
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Shaun, Sun Feb 24 2008, 08:18PM
What would the purpose of a thermite "booster" be? I would think a faster reaction and more energy released. According to wikipedia, military thermite mixtures, such as the kind you might find in thermite grenades or bombs, have a few other ingredients.
The one that stands out most is barium nitrate, which acts as a booster and lowers the ignition temp, which is critical for practical thermite use.
A chlorate booster sounds impractical at best, if not dangerous. As ramses implied, KClO3 and aluminum make a flash powder that is sensitive to friction, shock, and a number of impurities including sulfur and acids. While I don't doubt it could hasten the thermite reaction in some way, there seem to be better ways to do this that are already established.
I would much rather see perchlorate used as a booster, but god knows what would happen there as perchlorate+AL makes a much more powerful flash powder, albeit less sensitive.
Shaun, Sun Feb 24 2008, 08:18PM
What would the purpose of a thermite "booster" be? I would think a faster reaction and more energy released. According to wikipedia, military thermite mixtures, such as the kind you might find in thermite grenades or bombs, have a few other ingredients.
The one that stands out most is barium nitrate, which acts as a booster and lowers the ignition temp, which is critical for practical thermite use.
A chlorate booster sounds impractical at best, if not dangerous. As ramses implied, KClO3 and aluminum make a flash powder that is sensitive to friction, shock, and a number of impurities including sulfur and acids. While I don't doubt it could hasten the thermite reaction in some way, there seem to be better ways to do this that are already established.
I would much rather see perchlorate used as a booster, but god knows what would happen there as perchlorate+AL makes a much more powerful flash powder, albeit less sensitive.
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
ramses, Sun Feb 24 2008, 09:41PM
I think uber sensitive covers all of those sensitivities. and i don't think perchlorate isn't more powerful, it just has 1 more Oxygen for the same NaCl. even if it is more powerful, not by much.
ramses, Sun Feb 24 2008, 09:41PM
I think uber sensitive covers all of those sensitivities. and i don't think perchlorate isn't more powerful, it just has 1 more Oxygen for the same NaCl. even if it is more powerful, not by much.
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
thermite, Mon Feb 25 2008, 05:18AM
Let me tell you, industries use tons of thermite for production daily and big charges.
Thermate mainly had sulfur in addition to thermite and thus cuts iron very fast via formation of the eutectic and used in thermate cutter charges. But that is not what we want.
The military applications probably need the Ba(NO3)2 but this is not what we want. At best it is used for ignition. I am still not clear why the cation Ba is special. Its v poisonous and difficult to procure. I would want to use a benign nitrate. Its only at the starting tip.
Again, Let me tell you, industries use tons of thermite for production daily and big charges and the boosters. This means our knowledge is incomplete and we are just guessing. I have already said, those who have library accesses should try to get and share the docs and we can all study together. I would do it if my public library had any of this. They dont even have JACS. All they have are adult or children's books.
They dont deem the public to be deserving to read JACS.
On the other hand, the moscow public library has miles of shelves of books.
The criminals in the govt and their cronies in the industry are stealing our tax payer money like that MEGA SCAM ENRON which is only TIP OF THE ICEBERG and giving it to HALLIBURTON AND DEFENSE industries. Massive inflation is eating away everything.
And what is this "uber sesnsitive" ?
Does anyone have a writeup of the "current state of knowledge on thermite, empirical and theoretical" based on the work in this forum and its predicessor forum to share ? I am sure those who are doing it have done a study like this and can they generously share ? Successful Recipes, failed Recipes ... photos, videos but also of the grunt work and all steps, not just a show of the final result.
Lets brain-storm together and collect all the definitive knowledge into a single writeup.
thermite, Mon Feb 25 2008, 05:18AM
Let me tell you, industries use tons of thermite for production daily and big charges.
Shaun wrote ...
What would the purpose of a thermite "booster" be? I would think a faster reaction and more energy released. According to wikipedia, military thermite mixtures, such as the kind you might find in thermite grenades or bombs, have a few other ingredients.
What would the purpose of a thermite "booster" be? I would think a faster reaction and more energy released. According to wikipedia, military thermite mixtures, such as the kind you might find in thermite grenades or bombs, have a few other ingredients.
Thermate mainly had sulfur in addition to thermite and thus cuts iron very fast via formation of the eutectic and used in thermate cutter charges. But that is not what we want.
Shaun wrote ...
The one that stands out most is barium nitrate, which acts as a booster and lowers the ignition temp, which is critical for practical thermite use.
The one that stands out most is barium nitrate, which acts as a booster and lowers the ignition temp, which is critical for practical thermite use.
The military applications probably need the Ba(NO3)2 but this is not what we want. At best it is used for ignition. I am still not clear why the cation Ba is special. Its v poisonous and difficult to procure. I would want to use a benign nitrate. Its only at the starting tip.
Shaun wrote ...
A chlorate booster sounds impractical at best, if not dangerous. As ramses implied, KClO3 and aluminum make a flash powder that is sensitive to friction, shock, and a number of impurities including sulfur and acids. While I don't doubt it could hasten the thermite reaction in some way, there seem to be better ways to do this that are already established.
I would much rather see perchlorate used as a booster, but god knows what would happen there as perchlorate+AL makes a much more powerful flash powder, albeit less sensitive.
A chlorate booster sounds impractical at best, if not dangerous. As ramses implied, KClO3 and aluminum make a flash powder that is sensitive to friction, shock, and a number of impurities including sulfur and acids. While I don't doubt it could hasten the thermite reaction in some way, there seem to be better ways to do this that are already established.
I would much rather see perchlorate used as a booster, but god knows what would happen there as perchlorate+AL makes a much more powerful flash powder, albeit less sensitive.
Again, Let me tell you, industries use tons of thermite for production daily and big charges and the boosters. This means our knowledge is incomplete and we are just guessing. I have already said, those who have library accesses should try to get and share the docs and we can all study together. I would do it if my public library had any of this. They dont even have JACS. All they have are adult or children's books.
They dont deem the public to be deserving to read JACS.
On the other hand, the moscow public library has miles of shelves of books.
The criminals in the govt and their cronies in the industry are stealing our tax payer money like that MEGA SCAM ENRON which is only TIP OF THE ICEBERG and giving it to HALLIBURTON AND DEFENSE industries. Massive inflation is eating away everything.
And what is this "uber sesnsitive" ?
Does anyone have a writeup of the "current state of knowledge on thermite, empirical and theoretical" based on the work in this forum and its predicessor forum to share ? I am sure those who are doing it have done a study like this and can they generously share ? Successful Recipes, failed Recipes ... photos, videos but also of the grunt work and all steps, not just a show of the final result.
Lets brain-storm together and collect all the definitive knowledge into a single writeup.
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Chris Russell, Mon Feb 25 2008, 06:00AM
Please stay on topic. Rants about political matters are not relevant to the topic at hand, and will not help anyone arrive at the answers any faster.
Chris Russell, Mon Feb 25 2008, 06:00AM
Please stay on topic. Rants about political matters are not relevant to the topic at hand, and will not help anyone arrive at the answers any faster.
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
thermite, Mon Feb 25 2008, 05:40PM
JACS stands for the Journal of American Chemical Society ...
Since I was asked this in a PM I thought others might have the same question.
Old issues of journal of chemical education also have good info.
thermite, Mon Feb 25 2008, 05:40PM
JACS stands for the Journal of American Chemical Society ...
Since I was asked this in a PM I thought others might have the same question.
Old issues of journal of chemical education also have good info.
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Bored Chemist, Tue Feb 26 2008, 06:10PM
There's really quite alot of stuff on the web about thermite and boosted versions of it. As usual with the web, quite a lot of it is dross. Censorship certainly hasn't kept this stuff out of the public domain.
Here is the website for JACS
As you can see, it covers some really obscure stuff; most people in the local library couldn't read the titles nevermind understand them. It would be a waste of the library's (and thereby the taxpayer's) money to subscribe to it.
In any event, you won't see much there about thermite because the people who contribut to JACS grew out of that sort of thing ages ago.
If what you want to do is compile a list of experimental results from the inclusion of, for example, potassium chlorate, in thermite then go ahead. I will include the caveat that, if the stuff explodes, you might be in breach of the site rules. If you don't like those rules then I think your best bet is to set up your own website (good luck setting up one as successful as this).
Ranting about politics has little to do with the basis of this site and nothing to do with chemistry. Accordingly, I'm sure we would prefer that you didn't do so.
If you have any questions about actual chemistry feel free to ask them.
Bored Chemist, Tue Feb 26 2008, 06:10PM
There's really quite alot of stuff on the web about thermite and boosted versions of it. As usual with the web, quite a lot of it is dross. Censorship certainly hasn't kept this stuff out of the public domain.
Here is the website for JACS
As you can see, it covers some really obscure stuff; most people in the local library couldn't read the titles nevermind understand them. It would be a waste of the library's (and thereby the taxpayer's) money to subscribe to it.
In any event, you won't see much there about thermite because the people who contribut to JACS grew out of that sort of thing ages ago.
If what you want to do is compile a list of experimental results from the inclusion of, for example, potassium chlorate, in thermite then go ahead. I will include the caveat that, if the stuff explodes, you might be in breach of the site rules. If you don't like those rules then I think your best bet is to set up your own website (good luck setting up one as successful as this).
Ranting about politics has little to do with the basis of this site and nothing to do with chemistry. Accordingly, I'm sure we would prefer that you didn't do so.
If you have any questions about actual chemistry feel free to ask them.
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
thermite, Tue Feb 26 2008, 09:24PM
Zilch empirical or theoretical scientific info. JACS link trivial. third para full of ambiguities, threats of failure, devoid of any scientific info., indeed a high level spooky skill, but of no use in science. These spooks intend to create a knowledge apartheid, as if chemistry is of no use to common people.
you spent a lot of time crafting this ambiguous paranoia producing para. must have a lot of smoldering acid in you for this motivation.
If talking about rights of access to info is politics, then science begins with it.
thermite, Tue Feb 26 2008, 09:24PM
Bored Chemist wrote ...
There's really quite alot of stuff on the web about thermite and boosted versions of it. As usual with the web, quite a lot of it is dross. Censorship certainly hasn't kept this stuff out of the public domain.
Here is the website for JACS
As you can see, it covers some really obscure stuff; most people in the local library couldn't read the titles nevermind understand them. It would be a waste of the library's (and thereby the taxpayer's) money to subscribe to it.
In any event, you won't see much there about thermite because the people who contribut to JACS grew out of that sort of thing ages ago.
If what you want to do is compile a list of experimental results from the inclusion of, for example, potassium chlorate, in thermite then go ahead. I will include the caveat that, if the stuff explodes, you might be in breach of the site rules. If you don't like those rules then I think your best bet is to set up your own website (good luck setting up one as successful as this).
Ranting about politics has little to do with the basis of this site and nothing to do with chemistry. Accordingly, I'm sure we would prefer that you didn't do so.
If you have any questions about actual chemistry feel free to ask them.
There's really quite alot of stuff on the web about thermite and boosted versions of it. As usual with the web, quite a lot of it is dross. Censorship certainly hasn't kept this stuff out of the public domain.
Here is the website for JACS
As you can see, it covers some really obscure stuff; most people in the local library couldn't read the titles nevermind understand them. It would be a waste of the library's (and thereby the taxpayer's) money to subscribe to it.
In any event, you won't see much there about thermite because the people who contribut to JACS grew out of that sort of thing ages ago.
If what you want to do is compile a list of experimental results from the inclusion of, for example, potassium chlorate, in thermite then go ahead. I will include the caveat that, if the stuff explodes, you might be in breach of the site rules. If you don't like those rules then I think your best bet is to set up your own website (good luck setting up one as successful as this).
Ranting about politics has little to do with the basis of this site and nothing to do with chemistry. Accordingly, I'm sure we would prefer that you didn't do so.
If you have any questions about actual chemistry feel free to ask them.
Zilch empirical or theoretical scientific info. JACS link trivial. third para full of ambiguities, threats of failure, devoid of any scientific info., indeed a high level spooky skill, but of no use in science. These spooks intend to create a knowledge apartheid, as if chemistry is of no use to common people.
you spent a lot of time crafting this ambiguous paranoia producing para. must have a lot of smoldering acid in you for this motivation.
If talking about rights of access to info is politics, then science begins with it.
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Ultra7, Tue Feb 26 2008, 09:49PM
What the heck is this thread really about?
Ultra7, Tue Feb 26 2008, 09:49PM
What the heck is this thread really about?
Re: Chlorate boosters for thermite
Wolfram, Tue Feb 26 2008, 09:55PM
I have no idea either, but it looks like it has taken a political turn again. I don't see how this thread can result in anything positive for anyone, so I'll close it.
Wolfram, Tue Feb 26 2008, 09:55PM
I have no idea either, but it looks like it has taken a political turn again. I don't see how this thread can result in anything positive for anyone, so I'll close it.
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