Plasma Vortex
Wilson, Sat Mar 11 2006, 12:15PMI was playing with HV from a FBT yesterday and noticed a strange effect- By holding an electrode over the centre of a ferrite ring magnet from a microwave, the plasma forms a vortex. Reversing the connections results in a reversal in the spin direction.
Any comments on why this occurs?
I have an unsubstantiated theory that there is a force acting on the plasma arc , similar to how a force acts on a conductor in a magnetic field, such as in a motor, producing a spinning effect.
Either that or the plasma with all its loose electrons is responding in some unique fashion to the magnetic field.
Either way its a rather cool party trick
Enjoy the Video
(Ignore the unsafe tofu container, lol)
Re: Plasma Vortex
..., Sat Mar 11 2006, 06:27PM
wow!
That sort of reminds me of my quasi water diode experiments. The plasma was less dense than normal where it touched the water, so I guess that made it more unstable and thus it could give erratic behavior?
..., Sat Mar 11 2006, 06:27PM
wow!
That sort of reminds me of my quasi water diode experiments. The plasma was less dense than normal where it touched the water, so I guess that made it more unstable and thus it could give erratic behavior?
Re: Plasma Vortex
Madgyver, Sat Mar 11 2006, 07:14PM
Actually its a simliar effect like in a cylcotron.
Check out this page (german):
Madgyver, Sat Mar 11 2006, 07:14PM
Actually its a simliar effect like in a cylcotron.
Check out this page (german):
Re: Plasma Vortex
Sulaiman, Sat Mar 11 2006, 07:54PM
Nice One !!!
That was fascinating, well done.
I've been 'playing' with high voltages on and off for 30 years
and never seen that before, never even thought about it.
You'd better Copyright it - could be the next Plasma Globe/lava lamp etc.
P.S.
The current in the arc will experience a force at right angles with both the current and the magnetic field, (Fleming’s Left Hand Rule etc.)
Each ion in the arc is electrostacically attracted to the electrode/magnet
and gets 'pushed' sideways continuously by the magnetic field
this continuous sideways acceleration produces a spiral in the direction of the electrode
- your vortex.
You have effectively re-invented Faraday's motor
using plasma instead of wire.
Sounds like there's a fortune to be made on eBay under 'New Age'
Sulaiman, Sat Mar 11 2006, 07:54PM
Nice One !!!
That was fascinating, well done.
I've been 'playing' with high voltages on and off for 30 years
and never seen that before, never even thought about it.
You'd better Copyright it - could be the next Plasma Globe/lava lamp etc.
P.S.
The current in the arc will experience a force at right angles with both the current and the magnetic field, (Fleming’s Left Hand Rule etc.)
Each ion in the arc is electrostacically attracted to the electrode/magnet
and gets 'pushed' sideways continuously by the magnetic field
this continuous sideways acceleration produces a spiral in the direction of the electrode
- your vortex.
You have effectively re-invented Faraday's motor
using plasma instead of wire.
Sounds like there's a fortune to be made on eBay under 'New Age'
Re: Plasma Vortex
vasil, Sat Mar 11 2006, 08:25PM
I wonder how would behave an arc between two ferrite rings, covered with alu foil and connected to the HV terminals. It would rotate?
vasil, Sat Mar 11 2006, 08:25PM
I wonder how would behave an arc between two ferrite rings, covered with alu foil and connected to the HV terminals. It would rotate?
Re: Plasma Vortex
Tipp, Sun Mar 12 2006, 01:59AM
Thats extremely cool, nice job.
Magnets + HV = some very intresting effects
Tipp, Sun Mar 12 2006, 01:59AM
Thats extremely cool, nice job.
Magnets + HV = some very intresting effects
Re: Plasma Vortex
Omicron, Sun Mar 12 2006, 04:20AM
Could it be the magnet is pushing out some of the ions and pulling some in? That would make a twister effect. I have used strong magnets to move Alpha and Beta particles.
Omicron, Sun Mar 12 2006, 04:20AM
Could it be the magnet is pushing out some of the ions and pulling some in? That would make a twister effect. I have used strong magnets to move Alpha and Beta particles.
Re: Plasma Vortex
Wilson, Sun Mar 12 2006, 06:55AM
I made another video. This time with 2 magnets separated with 2 ceramic spacers, and no water.
Here's the link
It is interesting to note that the top magnet is not connected to GND like the bottom one.
The 2nd vortex while forms is also rather unstable
Enjoy
Wilson, Sun Mar 12 2006, 06:55AM
I made another video. This time with 2 magnets separated with 2 ceramic spacers, and no water.
Here's the link
It is interesting to note that the top magnet is not connected to GND like the bottom one.
The 2nd vortex while forms is also rather unstable
Enjoy
Re: Plasma Vortex
the_anomaly, Sun Mar 12 2006, 04:03PM
Well I had to do some playing and found some cool effects. If you increase the voltage the arc seems to spin faster. I’m using a flyback (dc) powered by the ZVS flyback driver powered from a variac. increasing voltage
The highest I tried was about 40 volts because my variac was nearing its current capacity(5amps).
And also when arcing to strong Nd magnets the arc seems to widen where it touches the magnet.touching magnet
The camera does not do justice. This is really cool if you try it yourself.
the_anomaly, Sun Mar 12 2006, 04:03PM
Well I had to do some playing and found some cool effects. If you increase the voltage the arc seems to spin faster. I’m using a flyback (dc) powered by the ZVS flyback driver powered from a variac. increasing voltage
The highest I tried was about 40 volts because my variac was nearing its current capacity(5amps).
And also when arcing to strong Nd magnets the arc seems to widen where it touches the magnet.touching magnet
The camera does not do justice. This is really cool if you try it yourself.
Re: Plasma Vortex
cjk2, Sun Mar 12 2006, 07:36PM
Well after seeing others results I wanted to try this myself. I used a 1" "Super magnet" in the experiment below. I also tried with a magnetron magnet but it was not as impressive. Its cool how the entire surface of the magnet seems to glow rather than one small point like you would expect. and arc also seems to like dancing in a circular pattern instead of staying in one place. I powered the setup with my "super ZVS" using just 30v in of filtered DC. I would have gone with a higher input voltage, but the core was spraying corona to the secondary because the power supply was just a variac and not isolated from the mains...
Video
and a picture:
Edit: Trying it inside the microwave magnet is really cool! The plasma spins so fast you just see a bright disk of gas.
cjk2, Sun Mar 12 2006, 07:36PM
Well after seeing others results I wanted to try this myself. I used a 1" "Super magnet" in the experiment below. I also tried with a magnetron magnet but it was not as impressive. Its cool how the entire surface of the magnet seems to glow rather than one small point like you would expect. and arc also seems to like dancing in a circular pattern instead of staying in one place. I powered the setup with my "super ZVS" using just 30v in of filtered DC. I would have gone with a higher input voltage, but the core was spraying corona to the secondary because the power supply was just a variac and not isolated from the mains...
Video
and a picture:
Edit: Trying it inside the microwave magnet is really cool! The plasma spins so fast you just see a bright disk of gas.
Re: Plasma Vortex
Tipp, Sun Mar 12 2006, 08:06PM
Seeing as everyone else was having fun, I decided to join in
I used different amounts of extremely strong [50 lb carrying capacity each ] Nd magnets and used them as ground. I was running approx 35-40 kV DC via one of my flybacks. The arc didn't seem to want to stay in one place, it kinda ran around the edge of the magnet (3/4" in dia) and flickered around. Very intresting...
Don't have any pics, seeing as I dont have a nice digi cam to record with
Maybe someday...
I've been scavenging old disposable cameras for cap bank lately, so I have a TON of flahstubes and neon indicator lamps I've desoldered lying around. I'm going to make a huge chain of them and see how many I can light up
Tipp, Sun Mar 12 2006, 08:06PM
Seeing as everyone else was having fun, I decided to join in
I used different amounts of extremely strong [50 lb carrying capacity each
] Nd magnets and used them as ground. I was running approx 35-40 kV DC via one of my flybacks. The arc didn't seem to want to stay in one place, it kinda ran around the edge of the magnet (3/4" in dia) and flickered around. Very intresting...Don't have any pics, seeing as I dont have a nice digi cam to record with
Maybe someday...I've been scavenging old disposable cameras for cap bank lately, so I have a TON of flahstubes and neon indicator lamps I've desoldered lying around. I'm going to make a huge chain of them and see how many I can light up
Re: Plasma Vortex
mikeselectricstuff, Sun Mar 12 2006, 08:50PM
I think the physics are pretty straightforward - Fleming's Left-Hand rule. Current+magnetic field = force, in this case on the stream of ionised air. The fact it's form a FBT means it will be (pulsed) dc, so movement will be in a consistent direction. AC would probaby behave noticeably differently (and if you could switch the polarity of the DC supply you could maybe get some interesting effects...)
I did some sort-of related stuff a while ago bending plasma streams in a xenon flashtube with a magnet :
mikeselectricstuff, Sun Mar 12 2006, 08:50PM
I think the physics are pretty straightforward - Fleming's Left-Hand rule. Current+magnetic field = force, in this case on the stream of ionised air. The fact it's form a FBT means it will be (pulsed) dc, so movement will be in a consistent direction. AC would probaby behave noticeably differently (and if you could switch the polarity of the DC supply you could maybe get some interesting effects...)
I did some sort-of related stuff a while ago bending plasma streams in a xenon flashtube with a magnet :
Re: Plasma Vortex
cjk2, Sun Mar 12 2006, 09:04PM
Here's a try with a ceramic magnet.
cjk2, Sun Mar 12 2006, 09:04PM
Here's a try with a ceramic magnet.
Re: Plasma Vortex
Sam, Mon Mar 13 2006, 12:40AM
I read this tonight I I ran down to the bat cave!(my shop) shoved everything off my bench and oooooooooh! I like. I had the magnets of the 3 MO I just took apart.
I have a video but know clue how to post it... 'lil help?
Sam, Mon Mar 13 2006, 12:40AM
I read this tonight I I ran down to the bat cave!(my shop) shoved everything off my bench and oooooooooh! I like. I had the magnets of the 3 MO I just took apart.
I have a video but know clue how to post it... 'lil help?
Re: Plasma Vortex
cjk2, Mon Mar 13 2006, 12:45AM
Try uploading your video to putfile.com and then just link to it here.
cjk2, Mon Mar 13 2006, 12:45AM
Try uploading your video to putfile.com and then just link to it here.
Re: Plasma Vortex
skmetal7, Mon Mar 13 2006, 01:33AM
I just tried this, its kewl!
http://media.putfile.com/Vortex27
skmetal7, Mon Mar 13 2006, 01:33AM
I just tried this, its kewl!
http://media.putfile.com/Vortex27
Re: Plasma Vortex
Wilson, Mon Mar 13 2006, 04:54AM
lol, i've excited plasma vortex fever into everyone.
I'm still trying to make a hour glass shaped vortex, as well as an upside down one. Although admittely i don't have much time as term 1 exams are coming soon...
Wilson, Mon Mar 13 2006, 04:54AM
lol, i've excited plasma vortex fever into everyone.
I'm still trying to make a hour glass shaped vortex, as well as an upside down one. Although admittely i don't have much time as term 1 exams are coming soon...
Re: Plasma Vortex
GimpyJoe, Mon Mar 13 2006, 02:20PM
I tried this yesterday with a half-wave rectified NST. It spun, but very slowly and with a jerky motion. I think this may only work with a higher frequency. I'll try again today with my 12kv 120ma NST stack.
GimpyJoe, Mon Mar 13 2006, 02:20PM
I tried this yesterday with a half-wave rectified NST. It spun, but very slowly and with a jerky motion. I think this may only work with a higher frequency. I'll try again today with my 12kv 120ma NST stack.
Re: Plasma Vortex
cjk2, Mon Mar 13 2006, 04:52PM
To make the arc stable you probably need high frequency AC to rectify to DC. If you try to rectify an NST you need some kind of filter cap on the output to make it stable.
cjk2, Mon Mar 13 2006, 04:52PM
To make the arc stable you probably need high frequency AC to rectify to DC. If you try to rectify an NST you need some kind of filter cap on the output to make it stable.
Re: Plasma Vortex
Sam, Mon Mar 13 2006, 07:24PM
I just used a staight ignition coil, But a have a frequency adjust on the driver, the higher the frequency the faster it spins
^^^^^Thats when I tried under salk water and with MOTs
Sam, Mon Mar 13 2006, 07:24PM
I just used a staight ignition coil, But a have a frequency adjust on the driver, the higher the frequency the faster it spins
^^^^^Thats when I tried under salk water and with MOTs
Re: Plasma Vortex
Nik, Mon Mar 13 2006, 07:56PM
I was jsut thinking about using a mot but you saved me a good 30min of prep. Maby with a full wave rectifier and a big filter cap a mot or NST would work better.
Nik, Mon Mar 13 2006, 07:56PM
I was jsut thinking about using a mot but you saved me a good 30min of prep. Maby with a full wave rectifier and a big filter cap a mot or NST would work better.
Re: Plasma Vortex
EEYORE, Wed Mar 15 2006, 06:58PM
Ive got an idea for you guys...What about replacing the magnet with a coil of wire which is pulsed(like a coil gun). The ions from the flyback would be attracted and accelerated much like a coilgun no?
Seems you would need to find a way to insulate the coil so as to keep it from arcing, and have a target wire or something on the other end?
Matt
EEYORE, Wed Mar 15 2006, 06:58PM
Ive got an idea for you guys...What about replacing the magnet with a coil of wire which is pulsed(like a coil gun). The ions from the flyback would be attracted and accelerated much like a coilgun no?
Seems you would need to find a way to insulate the coil so as to keep it from arcing, and have a target wire or something on the other end?
Matt
Re: Plasma Vortex
Wilson, Thu Mar 16 2006, 04:36AM
Sounds interesting, but the plasma quickly returns back to normal air once the energy source is removed
You might be able to get something interesting with an air cored electromagnet, 2 electrodes at the openings, and setting up an oscillating magnetic field.
Wilson, Thu Mar 16 2006, 04:36AM
Sounds interesting, but the plasma quickly returns back to normal air once the energy source is removed
You might be able to get something interesting with an air cored electromagnet, 2 electrodes at the openings, and setting up an oscillating magnetic field.
Re: Plasma Vortex
ragnar, Thu Mar 16 2006, 08:14AM
Doesn't quench all *that* quickly... with larger plumes of plasma, you can easily see, and capture on camera, the extinguishing plasma:
I considered pushing the plasma with a magnetic field, but someone convinced me it wasn't worth my time. I'll make a point of trying, now!
ragnar, Thu Mar 16 2006, 08:14AM
Doesn't quench all *that* quickly... with larger plumes of plasma, you can easily see, and capture on camera, the extinguishing plasma:
I considered pushing the plasma with a magnetic field, but someone convinced me it wasn't worth my time. I'll make a point of trying, now!
Re: Plasma Vortex
Marcus Wagner, Thu Jul 27 2006, 11:47PM
Hello everybody!
When I came across this forum past year I was very astonished about the royer/marzilli circuit.... I build one myself and did some experiments. Here are some pic which tell more than 1000 words.
Greets,
Marcus
Marcus Wagner, Thu Jul 27 2006, 11:47PM
Hello everybody!
When I came across this forum past year I was very astonished about the royer/marzilli circuit.... I build one myself and did some experiments. Here are some pic which tell more than 1000 words.
Greets,
Marcus
Re: Plasma Vortex
Marcus Wagner, Fri Jul 28 2006, 12:04AM
does this work? no.. sorry... cant upload the attachments.... why?
please look here to see the pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/18346774@N00/page9/
Marcus Wagner, Fri Jul 28 2006, 12:04AM
does this work? no.. sorry... cant upload the attachments.... why?
please look here to see the pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/18346774@N00/page9/
Re: Plasma Vortex
Kolas, Fri Jul 28 2006, 01:59AM
Wow guys, you might be on to something.
Does it work best with DC or AC?
If I hadn't killed every flyback in my zip code, I would have treid what I'm about to sujest.
Why not try the pulsed coil idea, but instead of a "DC" feild try an alternating feild. I guess a DC HV source would be best....
I think finding a way to force the plasma to move away form the magnet would be the direction to take here.
Have "yall" tried somthing with a much higher voltage, like 50-100kV and a considerable ditance, like 3-5? It would be very neat to see this vortex take on a tornadic shape.
Kolas
Kolas, Fri Jul 28 2006, 01:59AM
Wow guys, you might be on to something.
Does it work best with DC or AC?
If I hadn't killed every flyback in my zip code, I would have treid what I'm about to sujest.
Why not try the pulsed coil idea, but instead of a "DC" feild try an alternating feild. I guess a DC HV source would be best....
I think finding a way to force the plasma to move away form the magnet would be the direction to take here.
Have "yall" tried somthing with a much higher voltage, like 50-100kV and a considerable ditance, like 3-5? It would be very neat to see this vortex take on a tornadic shape.
Kolas
Re: Plasma Vortex
Steve Ward, Fri Jul 28 2006, 04:47AM
When i start feeling better i will try this out with my CW, which can easily do 120-160kV, which is a striking distance of maybe 8" or so. Im not sure if i have powerful enough magnets, but i have some from magnetrons and some 4" diameter donuts from speakers. Worth a shot i guess...
Steve Ward, Fri Jul 28 2006, 04:47AM
Have "yall" tried somthing with a much higher voltage, like 50-100kV and a considerable ditance, like 3-5? It would be very neat to see this vortex take on a tornadic shape.
When i start feeling better i will try this out with my CW, which can easily do 120-160kV, which is a striking distance of maybe 8" or so. Im not sure if i have powerful enough magnets, but i have some from magnetrons and some 4" diameter donuts from speakers. Worth a shot i guess...
Re: Plasma Vortex
EDY19, Fri Jul 28 2006, 05:47AM
I have no idea if this is even reasonable or not, but what would happen if an arc was syncronized to extinguish inside of the coil of a coilgun just as the coilgun was fired? Just an Idea...
EDY19, Fri Jul 28 2006, 05:47AM
I have no idea if this is even reasonable or not, but what would happen if an arc was syncronized to extinguish inside of the coil of a coilgun just as the coilgun was fired? Just an Idea...
Re: Plasma Vortex
McFluffin, Sat Jul 29 2006, 08:18AM
It has been said that the spin depends on polarity of the voltage. Is this true for the magnets as well? If so and one tried something higher voltage, it might be interesting to alternate the polarity of some magnets and see what happens. Maybe it would just wave back and forth.
McFluffin, Sat Jul 29 2006, 08:18AM
It has been said that the spin depends on polarity of the voltage. Is this true for the magnets as well? If so and one tried something higher voltage, it might be interesting to alternate the polarity of some magnets and see what happens. Maybe it would just wave back and forth.
Re: Plasma Vortex
ragnar, Sat Jul 29 2006, 09:05AM
The asymmetric heating is usual in DC circumstances, <snip>.
ragnar, Sat Jul 29 2006, 09:05AM
Kolas wrote ...
Wow guys, you might be on to something.
Does it work best with DC or AC?
Wow guys, you might be on to something.
Does it work best with DC or AC?
The asymmetric heating is usual in DC circumstances, <snip>.
Re: Plasma Vortex
Wilson, Sat Jul 29 2006, 12:46PM
I thought the hotter electrode was the one being bombared with positive ions (the -ve electrode)?
McFluffin, the direction of spin can be calculated if u know the direction of the magnetic field, and the direction of current flow using the left "FBI" rule - just treat the plasma as a "conductor", and apply the rule accordingly.
This is basically just a repetition of Faraday's experiment with the motor effect, except he used a metal rod, a pool of mercury and a magnet, while i'm using plasma
I've been wondering what would happen if you tried this inside an air cored solenoid. It might become quite interesting of you apply some low freq. AC to that coil too
Just need to find some ceramic/quartz tube to protect my windings...
Wilson, Sat Jul 29 2006, 12:46PM
I thought the hotter electrode was the one being bombared with positive ions (the -ve electrode)?
McFluffin, the direction of spin can be calculated if u know the direction of the magnetic field, and the direction of current flow using the left "FBI" rule - just treat the plasma as a "conductor", and apply the rule accordingly.
This is basically just a repetition of Faraday's experiment with the motor effect, except he used a metal rod, a pool of mercury and a magnet, while i'm using plasma
I've been wondering what would happen if you tried this inside an air cored solenoid. It might become quite interesting of you apply some low freq. AC to that coil too
Just need to find some ceramic/quartz tube to protect my windings...
Re: Plasma Vortex
Dr. Shark, Sun Jul 30 2006, 06:30PM
Beautiful pictures Marcus, do you have them in higher resolution? They would make a great desktop wallpaper.
Dr. Shark, Sun Jul 30 2006, 06:30PM
Beautiful pictures Marcus, do you have them in higher resolution? They would make a great desktop wallpaper.
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