Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
ragnar, Fri Mar 10 2006, 11:22PM

Seems a bit pointless to me. Try a PVC pipe full of button cells!

Find someone like oatley electronics who sells crappy LR44s in bulk for cents each.

Personally, I'd ask first what you want to do with it...

...then I'd ask if the fact that this is your second post on the forum means the only reason you joined the forum was to parasite off the members to get your HV battery built hehehe - I might be mistaken, but we're worth more than that, mate =)

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Eric, Sat Mar 11 2006, 12:14AM

Hey, he said 'pay generously' which is one of my favorite two word phrases. It doesn't sound that hard either. How big of a pile do you need (voltage wise) and what are you going to use it for?

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
ragnar, Sat Mar 11 2006, 01:03AM

When I used to work for phase engineering (midi and amplifier repair place) it was standard practise to take all the 3V lithiums (maintains volatile memory etc) and replace them as a matter of principle...

A few weeks later I had about 150V worth... I held them together in series with tape, wrote "TOWER OF POWER" on the side, and left it lying around in convenient places such as on the kettle... in the fridge... on my desk. It was severely popular!

Would a couple of PVC pipes full of watch cells not do the trick for you? seems a very easy way to do it without silvered paper etc etc... :-/

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
..., Sat Mar 11 2006, 07:05AM

What do you plan to do with it? You are not going to have more than a few ma/hrs in it, so unless you are just using it for electrostatic experiments it won't last at all (and probably won't be able to put out more than a few ma). I almost wonder if it would last very long just sitting with the amount of constant corona...

I suppose the most important question is what voltage do you need. I would recommend a 9v battery/button cell which can be hard pretty cheaply. batteries and butter has some 20cent 9v's... Even it you need 10kv that is a mere $200 That would also give a lot more storage/current capacity...

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
HV Enthusiast, Sat Mar 11 2006, 01:53PM

Yes, I am interested to learning the end application as well. Are you just trying to get the output voltage or are you doing this for historical purposes?

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
CM, Sat Mar 11 2006, 03:25PM

I've been a long time member having made many posts in the past and secured the services of more than one very bright persons from this site for past projects, but for some reason when the site upgraded, it no longer recognized my pass, so I had to rejoin, thus the reason for the low post count. (I wouldn't mind if the moderator changed my post count to 40 or so, which is easily how many posts I've made in the past).

The short answer for why I want a Zamboni is: I own two patents and just filed for my third, part of the 3rd application includes a circuit I developed that transforms HV to LV more efficiently than using a transformer. Eventho a Zamboni is extremely low amperage, I'd love to see how my conversion circuit performs when using a Zamboni as the HV source. Now then, here is the MAIN reason a Zamboni is attractive to me... Zamboni HV batteries are documented to operate for up to 50 years, and in atleast one case, claimed to currently be operating a electrostatic motor for over 100 years (see attached article). The battery eventually does run down as the electrolyte breaks down, so it's not the perverbial perpetual energy source, but it is a long-term energy source of HV/low amperage. A goggle search on Zamboni Battery reveals other articles stating the longevity known to be associated with these style HV batteries. Delicate fabrication such as is required to construct a Zamboni battery isn't my favorite activity, so I'm seeking to compensate someone to construct one or two Zambonis for me, approximately 3 feet long each, should provide ample voltage to operate my circuit. CM

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
HV Enthusiast, Sat Mar 11 2006, 03:37PM

To be honest, anytime i see the term "perpetual machine" mixed within a supposedly scientific article, i become very wary.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Nik, Sat Mar 11 2006, 03:38PM

Isnt a zamboni that big machine that drives across the ice at halftime?

Im not sure if you have thought about it but you could probably use a Van De Graff generator to power your circuit if you want HV, low aperage. It is a far easier task to build a small VDG then a "zamboni" battery of any size.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Steve Conner, Sat Mar 11 2006, 05:17PM

EVR: The article only mentioned perpetual motion in so far as to say that the Zamboni battery was _not_ a perpetual motion machine. As far as I'm concerned, CM has money ("Generous" amounts of it too) and he wants a straightforward but tedious job done. Is anyone going to take up his offer?

As a technical aside: the amp-hour capacity of a battery is presumably determined by the chemical energies of the electrode materials, and won't vary much no matter how those materials are assembled. So it's probably wrong to believe that the dry pile batteri is somehow more efficient. A three foot long stack of D cells could probably power a tiny motor for 100 years too, if it weren't for the fact that the guts of the D cells corrode and fail by themselves after about 10 years. The dry pile battery must just have a very long shelf life due to its very low activity. If I understand the principle right, the electrolyte is just the moisture naturally present in the air.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Tesladownunder, Sat Mar 11 2006, 05:20PM

This is presumably the Oxford Bell, described here along with 2 other long lived experiments.

Peter (no, I am not interested in making one)

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
CM, Sat Mar 11 2006, 11:20PM

Steve:

Well stated. Correct, the electrolyte used in early versions of the Zamboni are reported to be paper moistened only by the ambient humidity of the surrounding air. Other later versions added some magnesium to the paper, but all in all, the very weak electrolyte is apparently the reason for the 50-100 year lifespan of this style battery. Some articles report the Zamboni has been successfully used in military applications to power night-vision scopes. I know what I'm good at, and I know what I'm not good at... I would not be good at assembling thousands of metal and paper discs in a column, mechanical fabrication just isn't my strong point. HOWEVER, I am willing to pay handsomely for someone else who is gifted in mechancial applications to build a couple Zamboni batteries for me.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Dr. Shark, Sun Mar 12 2006, 12:26PM

Wow, this must be getting annoying for CM, so I am putting an end to this debate: I could build one for you. Please PM me about the details, ie. how much you would be willing to pay, when you need it done, what specs you want it to have.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Steve Conner, Sun Mar 12 2006, 03:20PM

How will you send a 3 foot long 10,000 volt battery through the mail? You can't turn the voltage off without dismantling it.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
HV Enthusiast, Sun Mar 12 2006, 03:38PM


Very simple. It can be crated and well insulated. As long as its well insulated, no current will flow between terminals. And 10,000 volts really isn't that high a voltage where insulation has to be excessive. Should be able to fit it in a 5ft x 2ft square crate with no problems.

Of course you'd probably have to ship it surface which will take a long time . . . Air would be very expensive for something this size.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Dr. Shark, Sun Mar 12 2006, 06:23PM

I suppose it could easily be made modular in a couple of 1kV segments, which could then be put together by CM himself. This would make shipping much easier.
Hey, I am not proposing to build a realistic remake of one of the historic batteries here, I would make a few changes to reflect the 100 years of industrialization that have happened since

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
robert, Sun Mar 12 2006, 06:28PM

Oh well, i would take a 2m long pvc pipe, build a 50kv multiplier and put in a hv/hf transformer with driving cct and a rechargable nimh battery pack.
It does the same thing but is a little simpler to build (no >10kg of silver necessary) and works cheaper (rechargable).

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Bjørn, Sun Mar 12 2006, 07:39PM

The next post needs to be 100% on topic and preferably from someone can make a high quality Zamboni battery.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
CM, Wed Mar 15 2006, 07:54AM

Daniel and Joe Doh:

Re: Zamboni Battery Fabrication

I sent PMs to both of you three days ago, neither have been opened yet. Daniel I also sent email.

CM

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Carbon_Rod, Wed Mar 15 2006, 06:03PM

It sounds very similar to the old capacitors. Perhaps, Zamboni’s device was not perpetual but had an atmospheric charging potential based on electrostatics like large capacitors left open.

One may wish to look into finding someone with a round-button-die press for pins. I really hope you found a good lawyer to do your legal work. Patents can suck the fun out of just about anything (see WIPO.)

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
CM, Thu Mar 16 2006, 02:37PM

Carbon:

With regard to the Zamboni battery method of operation, I'd be interested in reading more about the large old style capacitors of which you speak. Can you tell me where to find this info? CM

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
the_anomaly, Thu Mar 16 2006, 03:14PM

He just means that from the background static around them, capacitors will develop a charge over time. Large caps especially high voltage ones generally have bleeder resistors connected to their terminals to dissipate this charge.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
mikeselectricstuff, Fri Mar 17 2006, 06:40PM

background static...?
I whould have thought this was more about caps slowly recovering charge due to movement of charge trapped within their dielectric after charge/discharge cycles.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Carbon_Rod, Fri Mar 17 2006, 10:24PM

Not quite the same thing.

The chemical potential energy of the battery could be slowly charging by the electrostatic potential (instead of being dissipated by a bleeder resister.) If the area is large enough to be exceeding the battery’s chemical energy decay rate it should recharge by itself over time.

I would guess the chemical energy of the battery could be delivered at a higher reaction rate then a very slow atmospheric phenomenon. I had wondered about harnessing this as an energy source as a kid too. But I found out it’s rather an old idea with obvious practical limits. There have been many battery designs that were inefficient for their size but had “interesting” characteristics. You still see them in small town farm and mining museums.

Btw: Hockey does not have a “Halftime”, but is normally played in 3 periods or more. It’s a gentlemen’s sport where injury or insults are rare. =) grin lol he he he

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Zamboni, Fri Apr 30 2010, 01:50PM

I have made a Zamboni Battery from Mno2 and Zinc dust. I can tell you that it is quite a job. I have gotten as much as 500V per 1000 units. I have not been able to reproduce the thousands of volts that were supposedly produced in the past. I wonder if they were measured correctly, and exactly how they were measured. A regular voltmeter is useless. I used an Electrostatic locater to measure voltage and it is imprecise at best.
I am interested in (and have actually built) a "reproduction" Zamboni device. Eventually I hope to be the World's only supplier of Reproduction Zamboni Devices.

After 3 years of effort, I have built a device that has lasted a mighty 6 months (as of now) and is still going. That is a far cry from the 177 years that the Oxford device has been quietly oscillating, but, to my knowledge I have the only working device in the country. I think that it is a really neat device, I have watched it slowly oscillate in an almost hypnotic fashion. I am hoping that I can duplicate the longevity of the Oxford bell. So far, I have not been able to get my batteries thin enough to get the 2K voltage in about 11 inches of space, like the Oxford device. I am still working on it though and I have patience bordering on obsession.

For the 2 or 3 people in the country who find this sort of thing interesting, I enclose a movie below. Or go to my YouTube clip

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Wolfram, Fri Apr 30 2010, 03:42PM

Good job, it's always nice seeing (mostly) forgotten things from the past being brought back by hobbyists.

Unfortunately, the original poster of this thread is long gone, but I think your project deserves its own thread in the "Projects" forum, as I am sure there are people here interested in more details. I know I am.


Anders M.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
IntraWinding, Fri Apr 30 2010, 06:56PM

Thumbs up from me too

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Antonio, Sat May 01 2010, 05:26PM

I am interested in more details too. It's simple to make a Zamboni pile, but boring. It may be a problem to find adequate modern materials to use. The pendulum shown in the video appears to be torsional. Interesting idea, if not accidental.
To measure the voltage it's possible to use an electrostatic field meter (field-mill) measuring the electric field at the center of a two-plates capacitor. I use the devices shown here (too small pictures):

Manual here:

It's also simple to get or make an electrometer or electroscope with a scale, calibrate it from an adjustable high-voltage power supply (if you have one), and use it to measure the output voltage of the pile. The short-circuit current can be measured with a conventional microamperimeter, but an amplifier may be required, since the current output of these piles is probably well below the uA range.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Zamboni, Sun May 02 2010, 12:37PM

I was quite surprised to find the construction of the Zamboni referred to as "simple". I must have really missed the boat.

Antonio,I hope you won't mind a few questions. I don't think that you realize that what you accomplished is a great achievment. I can tell you from personal experience that while Zamboni piles may sound easy to construct, they are actually quite difficult.

Please entertain a few questions.
1. In your prototype, how you able to get the 2KV in 10 inches of battery length?
2. What concentrations of what chemicals you use?
3. What kind of foil?
4. What voltage did you achieve, in what length pile?
5. How did you overcome the problem of stacking multiple batteries together without losing any voltage in the stacking process?
6. How long did your pile retain peak voltage?

I feel a bit foolish for rejoicing in my measly 5-7 hundred volts in 10 inches of pile.
I assure you, you have accomplished what the best minds only dream of. During WW2, they were unable to duplicate the 2KV that was achieved by the Oxford Electric Bell.

I think you are bieng very modest as I have not seen any part of the construction that was anything other than complicated. I found the construction of the pile to be rather like running a marathon. Sure, stacking one battery upon another was easy, just like a single step when you are running, but, running 26 miles is very hard.

Most people find that when they stack 1000 batteries together, the voltage falls rapidly. The British used stacks of 800 batteries to get a max of 575 volts. They had to link 8 piles together to get the 3-4Kv that they needed to run the night vision equipment. The British also found that the piles didn't retain the voltage very long. Nowhere near the 177 years that the Oxford Electric Bell has retained it's voltage.

Please share your wisdom and experience.

Yours truly.
Paul

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Antonio, Sun May 02 2010, 01:36PM

Where I said that I made one? I have a lot of experience with electrostatics, and surely know how to measure voltages at extremely high impedance and very small currents. I have read most of the old papers about Zamboni and de Luc batteries, however.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
IntraWinding, Sun May 02 2010, 02:20PM

Apparently the Oxford Bell batteries were sealed with molten sulphur.
I bet that contributes some sulphur acids, but strange to think of it contributing both conductive acids and acting as an insulator.

Perhaps the sulphur releases sulphur dioxide which forms acid with the moisture in the paper whilst the solid sulphur remains non conductive.
But there again, I'm reminded of Compact Disc Bronzing and the problems acid paper causes libraries , but both those issues suggest old paper contains enough sulphur of its own to not need the extra provided by a coating. And apparently "cellulose itself produces formic, acetic, lactic and oxalic acids."

I wonder if someone makes a range of metallised cigarette papers? If they sell a silver and Bronze variety you could work up a technique for punching out discs in their thousands and start experimenting Otherwise, some other pair of metallised papers must be out there.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
Proud Mary, Sun May 02 2010, 02:31PM

There's nothing in the least bit mysterious about 'Zamboni' piles, which will supply current until all the zinc is oxidized. It is not 'electrostatic' at all, but electrochemical in nature, and is wholly dependent on the standard reduction potential difference between the substance in the cell being reduced, and the substance being oxidized. It is only 'dry' in the sense that it did not have liquid sloshing about, in the way of Leclanché cells.

Portable equipment of the Thermionic Age often used HT batteries to supply 150V or so for the valves, and in the early years of atomic research, batteries consisting of thousands of individual cells wired in series were often employed when kilovolts were required on tap in the laboratory.

Finally, effective treatment for Zamboni's piles was probably not available in the early 19th century.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
radiotech, Sun May 02 2010, 04:47PM

A use for this device might be discovery and testing hitherto unknown uses of paper with the object of improving the printability and/or mechanical aspects of fibre based structural members.

It is amazing that the non uniformity of paper makes every bit different than every other bit made.

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
IntraWinding, Sun May 02 2010, 10:33PM

I remember as a child saving up and buying an Ever Ready 90V battery that my nearest bicycle shop had on sale for people who still had valve radios, something like this

I was worried that despite the hight price it might have sat there for years and be useless, but it was fine. Made really nice little arcs between copper wires!

Whatever the chemistry in that Zamboni battery is, it has an amazing shelf life. I doubt there'd be much juice left in a Duracell after 160 years!

Alan

Re: Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery
klugesmith, Mon May 03 2010, 03:16AM

Me too. Found a 90 volt dry cell in stock at J&H Outlet (electronics and surplus) about 10 miles from home by three-speed bicycle. Needed it for some neon glow lamp blinky circuits.