Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Sulaiman, Thu Aug 23 2007, 03:58PMHi, I'm just trying my first circuits using "Manhattan-Style" breadboarding
using fiberglass board with single-sided copper foil, and superglue (cyanoacrilate I think)
In small amounts, is there any real hazard from the fumes?
Especially when heated to soldering iron temperatures?
Even if all the glue has not set?
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Thu Aug 23 2007, 05:40PM
OH YEA there is. I used to use the super glue to fix my small wound coils that I was making for bugging devices and whenever you apply the soldering iron you get Cyanide gassed. It's a very irritating burning sensation in your eyes and may make you cough a few times if you get a dry drop of it too hot. If you're using a lot of the glue you're going to need to open the windows or even be prepaired to leave the room quickly.
I would suggest not even using super glue. The copper foil is bonded to the fiberglass using the same compatible fiberglass resin. I would mix that ( its a 2 part polystyrene resin) and smear that on the copper then foil it in place. The resin is really tough stuff and can even be used to glue copper foils to the bottom of Tesla coil forms as your end terminal.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Thu Aug 23 2007, 05:40PM
OH YEA there is. I used to use the super glue to fix my small wound coils that I was making for bugging devices and whenever you apply the soldering iron you get Cyanide gassed. It's a very irritating burning sensation in your eyes and may make you cough a few times if you get a dry drop of it too hot. If you're using a lot of the glue you're going to need to open the windows or even be prepaired to leave the room quickly.
I would suggest not even using super glue. The copper foil is bonded to the fiberglass using the same compatible fiberglass resin. I would mix that ( its a 2 part polystyrene resin) and smear that on the copper then foil it in place. The resin is really tough stuff and can even be used to glue copper foils to the bottom of Tesla coil forms as your end terminal.
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
AndrewM, Thu Aug 23 2007, 09:10PM
The fumes aren't cyanide, its just vaporized cyanoacrylate. Its not especially harmful, as the very same stuff, albeit usually with a different alcohol, is used as a liquid bandage. You shouldn't breathe it in if you can avoid it, but I wouldn't sweat it.
AndrewM, Thu Aug 23 2007, 09:10PM
The fumes aren't cyanide, its just vaporized cyanoacrylate. Its not especially harmful, as the very same stuff, albeit usually with a different alcohol, is used as a liquid bandage. You shouldn't breathe it in if you can avoid it, but I wouldn't sweat it.
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Bjørn, Thu Aug 23 2007, 09:40PM
This is a good starting point:
One important question would be, is your glue pure ethyl cyanoacrylate or does it have something more sinister mixed into it?
Bjørn, Thu Aug 23 2007, 09:40PM
This is a good starting point:
One important question would be, is your glue pure ethyl cyanoacrylate or does it have something more sinister mixed into it?
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
ragnar, Thu Aug 23 2007, 11:54PM
Sulaiman, I think you'll find "manhattan-style" breadboarding VERY rewarding, especially for your higher frequency work.
Even if the glue isn't completely dry, you'll always get a little cloud of smelly vapour. If you breathe it, it tastes terrible, if you smell it, the odor is strongly offensive and burns a bit, and if it gets into your eyes, you'll weep for about a second, but any irritation is quite short term -- seconds at most. You'll probably develop the habit of breathing out as you solder anything with CA under it.
Since I know that the exposure can't be good for me, I just run a little 60mm 12V computer fan sucking away from the general area where I'm soldering, and I have no problems.
I WOULD strongly suggest to continue using CA/superglue, because it's so convenient for the job. Even though you're heating it up, once the pad has cooled down again, the glue holds plenty of strength.
I also like the CA because you can fracture the join by shearing or twisting the pad with some pliers if you want to relocate it later.
ragnar, Thu Aug 23 2007, 11:54PM
Sulaiman, I think you'll find "manhattan-style" breadboarding VERY rewarding, especially for your higher frequency work.
Even if the glue isn't completely dry, you'll always get a little cloud of smelly vapour. If you breathe it, it tastes terrible, if you smell it, the odor is strongly offensive and burns a bit, and if it gets into your eyes, you'll weep for about a second, but any irritation is quite short term -- seconds at most. You'll probably develop the habit of breathing out as you solder anything with CA under it.
Since I know that the exposure can't be good for me, I just run a little 60mm 12V computer fan sucking away from the general area where I'm soldering, and I have no problems.
I WOULD strongly suggest to continue using CA/superglue, because it's so convenient for the job. Even though you're heating it up, once the pad has cooled down again, the glue holds plenty of strength.
I also like the CA because you can fracture the join by shearing or twisting the pad with some pliers if you want to relocate it later.
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
AndrewM, Fri Aug 24 2007, 01:51AM
BP looking at those boards reminds of of those "and this is the spider's web on Meth..." videos :)
AndrewM, Fri Aug 24 2007, 01:51AM
BP looking at those boards reminds of of those "and this is the spider's web on Meth..." videos :)
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Bored Chemist, Fri Aug 24 2007, 05:49AM
I think the typical superglues are nearly pure cyanoacrylate ester. The thickened ones might have other things in them.
Bored Chemist, Fri Aug 24 2007, 05:49AM
I think the typical superglues are nearly pure cyanoacrylate ester. The thickened ones might have other things in them.
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Sulaiman, Fri Aug 24 2007, 07:14AM
I like the "Manhattan Style" of breadboarding,
very quick for prototyping, changing components around etc.
At the moment I'm experimenting with different oscillators at 136kHz
checking frequency stability of various topologies.
At this frequency having a ground plane isn't important, but I do find this style useful.
On the down side,
I haven't had my fingers burnt (painfully overheated really, not literally burned)
during soldering this much for decades
Sulaiman, Fri Aug 24 2007, 07:14AM
I like the "Manhattan Style" of breadboarding,
very quick for prototyping, changing components around etc.
At the moment I'm experimenting with different oscillators at 136kHz
checking frequency stability of various topologies.
At this frequency having a ground plane isn't important, but I do find this style useful.
On the down side,
I haven't had my fingers burnt (painfully overheated really, not literally burned)
during soldering this much for decades
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
ragnar, Fri Aug 24 2007, 02:27PM
Andrew, is it the total lack or any organisation of my boards that makes them look like crap? I guess I'm not really adhering to Manhattan principles very well -- this kind of prototyping is supposed to make things tidier, not messier
Sulaiman, have you not yet developed 'asbestos fingertips' from all the soldering?
I went out of my way to import a holepunch from "harbor frieght" (usa) which is apparently perfect for cutting little discs of copper...
ragnar, Fri Aug 24 2007, 02:27PM
Andrew, is it the total lack or any organisation of my boards that makes them look like crap? I guess I'm not really adhering to Manhattan principles very well -- this kind of prototyping is supposed to make things tidier, not messier
Sulaiman, have you not yet developed 'asbestos fingertips' from all the soldering?
I went out of my way to import a holepunch from "harbor frieght" (usa) which is apparently perfect for cutting little discs of copper...
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Bjørn, Sat Aug 25 2007, 02:40PM
The way the components are placed relative to eachother with a total disrespect of the whole gives associations to brain damage or drug induced psychosis.
versus
It also reminiscent of insects and spiders
So the connection to spiders and drugs is not far off.
It will not sell very well but I respect it more than anything with a blue LED on it.
Bjørn, Sat Aug 25 2007, 02:40PM
The way the components are placed relative to eachother with a total disrespect of the whole gives associations to brain damage or drug induced psychosis.
versus 
It also reminiscent of insects and spiders
So the connection to spiders and drugs is not far off.
It will not sell very well but I respect it more than anything with a blue LED on it.
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Marko, Sat Aug 25 2007, 02:51PM
Aw, bjorn, please.. Blackplasma is nice, don't flame him.
BP: what's the thing on upper board?
Regarding cyanoacrylate glue.. Yeah, it's very nasty when it gets hot, cured or uncured. From medical use of cyanoacrylate i imagine it is probably not very harmful (deposits into inert solid in lungs) but I don't want to try that theory out.
You can put a fan to blow the fumes off but the it contaminates the whole room. (Bad in summer with AC on).
It also breaks down with heat. It probably won't under a PCB, but too much heat causes it to crack and bubble.
You can tin and then use hot air gun or propane torch to carefully solder the 'traces'.
Or use some other kind of glue, maybe some kind of heat-curing epoxy (The PCB if epoxied fiberglass, after all).
Marko, Sat Aug 25 2007, 02:51PM
Aw, bjorn, please.. Blackplasma is nice, don't flame him.
BP: what's the thing on upper board?
Regarding cyanoacrylate glue.. Yeah, it's very nasty when it gets hot, cured or uncured. From medical use of cyanoacrylate i imagine it is probably not very harmful (deposits into inert solid in lungs) but I don't want to try that theory out.
You can put a fan to blow the fumes off but the it contaminates the whole room. (Bad in summer with AC on).
It also breaks down with heat. It probably won't under a PCB, but too much heat causes it to crack and bubble.
You can tin and then use hot air gun or propane torch to carefully solder the 'traces'.
Or use some other kind of glue, maybe some kind of heat-curing epoxy (The PCB if epoxied fiberglass, after all).
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Bjørn, Sat Aug 25 2007, 03:21PM
It is in no way a flame or critisism, just an explanation. As I said I respect that sort of construction more than any other construction that puts looks before functionality.
I have also made worse things than that.
Bjørn, Sat Aug 25 2007, 03:21PM
It is in no way a flame or critisism, just an explanation. As I said I respect that sort of construction more than any other construction that puts looks before functionality.
I have also made worse things than that.
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
ragnar, Sun Aug 26 2007, 12:20AM
Thanks for pointing out my mess, Andrew and Bjørn -- often in my ignorance / disorganisation I glue the pads down all too quickly (or don't use any pads at all), and rush to get something working.
I will admit, Manhattan-style construction certainly makes debugging easy -- none of the dust-between-tracks risk and crap associated with veroboard / donutboard.
I'm making a concerted effort from now on to make my circuits neater, smaller, and prettier.
Marko, that was a push/pull converter.
ragnar, Sun Aug 26 2007, 12:20AM
Thanks for pointing out my mess, Andrew and Bjørn -- often in my ignorance / disorganisation I glue the pads down all too quickly (or don't use any pads at all), and rush to get something working.
I will admit, Manhattan-style construction certainly makes debugging easy -- none of the dust-between-tracks risk and crap associated with veroboard / donutboard.
I'm making a concerted effort from now on to make my circuits neater, smaller, and prettier.
Marko, that was a push/pull converter.
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Bjørn, Sun Aug 26 2007, 04:04AM
Putting down a grid pattern on the base will probably make it easier to get everything lined up.
Bjørn, Sun Aug 26 2007, 04:04AM
Putting down a grid pattern on the base will probably make it easier to get everything lined up.
Re: Cyanoacrilate Glue + Heat = OK?
Steve Conner, Sun Aug 26 2007, 09:04AM
I'm with BP. When people see dead bug prototypes I've built, they think I am on meth, but when they figure out how the circuit works and what it does, they realise it was actually magic mushrooms
Steve Conner, Sun Aug 26 2007, 09:04AM
I'm with BP. When people see dead bug prototypes I've built, they think I am on meth, but when they figure out how the circuit works and what it does, they realise it was actually magic mushrooms
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