Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Terry Fritz, Tue Aug 21 2007, 05:37AMHi,
After a year to "cool it down" so nobody runs off half cocked and just dies... And because they are leaking out like crazy now
I am putting the "secret" details of the PIRANHA-II on line.
SISG, voltage tripler, ball terminal, fully safety enclosed primary system without fan cooling... Prolly the best and most efficient Tesla coil out there
Please (!!!) take the safety warnings "real hard" since this is a pretty F****** scary technology!! Only myself and Bob Golka have seen it run in person
He visited here on just the right day 
I stomped on it at first since it was "too new"... But now is the time
Cheers,
Terry
I am still very alive. But since PIRANHA-II there just was not too much left in Tesla coil stuff to worry about anymore
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
ragnar, Tue Aug 21 2007, 07:52AM
A great release and great reading -- thanks Terry!
The coils are still too noisy for my liking, I'll always be a CW fan, hehehe
ragnar, Tue Aug 21 2007, 07:52AM
A great release and great reading -- thanks Terry!
The coils are still too noisy for my liking, I'll always be a CW fan, hehehe
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Reaching, Tue Aug 21 2007, 12:36PM
im currently building my 7 stage sisg modul but with 600v igbts and 440v breakdown voltage per stage. maybe it´ll work. we´ll see. sidacs are so hard to get here and i have only 15 of them, so hopefully it´ll work at the first try :/
Reaching, Tue Aug 21 2007, 12:36PM
im currently building my 7 stage sisg modul but with 600v igbts and 440v breakdown voltage per stage. maybe it´ll work. we´ll see. sidacs are so hard to get here and i have only 15 of them, so hopefully it´ll work at the first try :/
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
thedatastream, Tue Aug 21 2007, 01:41PM
Wow, simple but effective - I want one!
Write out 100 times
I must get my DRSSTC working first
I must get my DRSSTC working first
I must get my DRSSTC working first
I must get my DR...
* thedatastream goes off to find some SIDACs
thedatastream, Tue Aug 21 2007, 01:41PM
Wow, simple but effective - I want one!
Write out 100 times
I must get my DRSSTC working first
I must get my DRSSTC working first
I must get my DRSSTC working first
I must get my DR...
* thedatastream goes off to find some SIDACs
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
sparky, Tue Aug 21 2007, 07:46PM
I'd be curious if a SISG technology could work on pole pig/ PT powered devices? Could you series a pile of SISGs and run 8kW?? Could it be done?
:)
sparky, Tue Aug 21 2007, 07:46PM
I'd be curious if a SISG technology could work on pole pig/ PT powered devices? Could you series a pile of SISGs and run 8kW?? Could it be done?
:)
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Finn Hammer, Tue Aug 21 2007, 07:55PM
Terry,
Wonderfull release.
Daniel and I are forwarding the torch, with a substantial triggered BRISG, to paraphrase datastream:
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Cheers, Finn Hammer
Finn Hammer, Tue Aug 21 2007, 07:55PM
Terry,
Wonderfull release.
Daniel and I are forwarding the torch, with a substantial triggered BRISG, to paraphrase datastream:
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Must get CCPS working reliably first.....
Cheers, Finn Hammer
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Marko, Tue Aug 21 2007, 08:21PM
I don't see what's the hype.. where are those '9 foot arcs' after all?
Still SISG is nice curiosity altogether.
Probably could, but why bother with pigs when with amount of silicon you would need to use you could simply build a humongous DRSSTC.
PS. after I dug out some old SISG development papers I see I was a bit pessimistic about this, since IGBT's are really efficient even without quenching and even still beat spark gaps by like 30%.
Still I don't think it pwns DRSSTC in any manner :)
Marko, Tue Aug 21 2007, 08:21PM
I don't see what's the hype.. where are those '9 foot arcs' after all?
Still SISG is nice curiosity altogether.
I'd be curious if a SISG technology could work on pole pig/ PT powered devices? Could you series a pile of SISGs and run 8kW?? Could it be done?
Probably could, but why bother with pigs when with amount of silicon you would need to use you could simply build a humongous DRSSTC.
PS. after I dug out some old SISG development papers I see I was a bit pessimistic about this, since IGBT's are really efficient even without quenching and even still beat spark gaps by like 30%.
Still I don't think it pwns DRSSTC in any manner :)
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Steve Conner, Tue Aug 21 2007, 11:06PM
Finn, are you going to run your BRISG off your CCPS? I think that would be about the coolest combination of acronyms I've seen in a while. (even if they are actually abbreviations :| )
Steve Conner, Tue Aug 21 2007, 11:06PM
Finn, are you going to run your BRISG off your CCPS? I think that would be about the coolest combination of acronyms I've seen in a while. (even if they are actually abbreviations :| )
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Daniel Uhrenholt, Wed Aug 22 2007, 04:45AM
Steve,
Yes we want to run Finn’s BRISG with our CCPS
We still need to get the CCPS working reliably, but we are getting there…
Cheers, Daniel
EDIT: spelling!
BTW.
Terry,
I like the simplicity of the SIDAC sparkgap, and I think we will see more coils with it in the near future:-) As Finn mentioned, we are working on a rather big coil at the moment...
Daniel Uhrenholt, Wed Aug 22 2007, 04:45AM
Steve,
Yes we want to run Finn’s BRISG with our CCPS
We still need to get the CCPS working reliably, but we are getting there…
Cheers, Daniel
EDIT: spelling!
BTW.
Terry,
I like the simplicity of the SIDAC sparkgap, and I think we will see more coils with it in the near future:-) As Finn mentioned, we are working on a rather big coil at the moment...
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
mikeselectricstuff, Mon Aug 27 2007, 11:10PM
Apologies if this has been discussed here before - been away from TCs for a while - but what is the reason for the ball topload as opposed to a toroid - performance or convenience of dissassembly?
mikeselectricstuff, Mon Aug 27 2007, 11:10PM
Apologies if this has been discussed here before - been away from TCs for a while - but what is the reason for the ball topload as opposed to a toroid - performance or convenience of dissassembly?
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Marko, Mon Aug 27 2007, 11:16PM
Toroid is generally proffered simply because it's shape works better in preventing breakout from top turns.
Other than that, it can be made out of corrugated Al pipe, much easier than a sphere
Marko, Mon Aug 27 2007, 11:16PM
Toroid is generally proffered simply because it's shape works better in preventing breakout from top turns.
Other than that, it can be made out of corrugated Al pipe, much easier than a sphere
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Electroholic, Tue Aug 28 2007, 02:35AM
but the multi ball toploads are easily tunable.
Electroholic, Tue Aug 28 2007, 02:35AM
but the multi ball toploads are easily tunable.
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Steve Conner, Tue Aug 28 2007, 08:55AM
All I have to say on the subject is this:
Steve Conner, Tue Aug 28 2007, 08:55AM
All I have to say on the subject is this:
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Marko, Tue Aug 28 2007, 11:33AM
More balls = more power?
Marko, Tue Aug 28 2007, 11:33AM
All I have to say on the subject is this:
More balls = more power?
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Terry Fritz, Sun Sept 02 2007, 04:31AM
Hi,
Hahhaa! I have been surprised at how "late" the ball terminal idea has come to be accepted...
Maybe I should have made a better page you did not have to dig through...
But my local pal Dave was willing to give it a try
I think it was almost as an important of a new idea as the SISG and the PIRANHA drive
But "new" ideas are slow to be accepted now, so it is cool
I knew that "PIRANHA" was "wayyyy ahead"... And I knew it would take time to "sink in" out there...
But your are all "coming home" now
Cheers,
Terry
Terry Fritz, Sun Sept 02 2007, 04:31AM
Hi,
Hahhaa! I have been surprised at how "late" the ball terminal idea has come to be accepted...
Maybe I should have made a better page you did not have to dig through...
But my local pal Dave was willing to give it a try 
I think it was almost as an important of a new idea as the SISG and the PIRANHA drive
But "new" ideas are slow to be accepted now, so it is cool
I knew that "PIRANHA" was "wayyyy ahead"... And I knew it would take time to "sink in" out there...
But your are all "coming home" now
Cheers,
Terry
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Sept 02 2007, 06:02AM
I'll 'come home' after I'm done asking serious questions about SGTC systems like:
thurough secondary investigation - working on now
A.C. Resistance investigations - working on now
Load capacitence and fall of Cself
Spark investigation, including inductance of the spark (because all conductors have inductance)
primary tank optimization
optimal terminal capacitence investigation
primary power source optimization (LTR) - finished
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Sept 02 2007, 06:02AM
I'll 'come home' after I'm done asking serious questions about SGTC systems like:
thurough secondary investigation - working on now
A.C. Resistance investigations - working on now
Load capacitence and fall of Cself
Spark investigation, including inductance of the spark (because all conductors have inductance)
primary tank optimization
optimal terminal capacitence investigation
primary power source optimization (LTR) - finished
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Terry Fritz, Sun Sept 02 2007, 06:34AM
"I'll 'come home' after I'm done asking serious questions about SGTC systems like:"...
You might need to get familiar with, and maybe even improve upon, ScanTesla...
It has "the power" to do "your bidding"... A simple open source C program that you can change as you please if you need. It has the modeling tools and "scan" ability to find the best combinations of "all the stuff"...
it is sort of "technical". But I can help you figure it out.
Terry
I am all "home" now) But Finn and Daniel are up to something "BIG"
Terry Fritz, Sun Sept 02 2007, 06:34AM
"I'll 'come home' after I'm done asking serious questions about SGTC systems like:"...
You might need to get familiar with, and maybe even improve upon, ScanTesla...
It has "the power" to do "your bidding"... A simple open source C program that you can change as you please if you need. It has the modeling tools and "scan" ability to find the best combinations of "all the stuff"...
it is sort of "technical". But I can help you figure it out.
Terry
I am all "home" now
) But Finn and Daniel are up to something "BIG" Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Steve Conner, Sun Sept 02 2007, 10:29AM
Yeah, Hazmatt, the SGTC was "solved" a couple of years ago and we all moved on to studying DRSSTCs. You can analyze the Piranha coils with the same theory as conventional SGTCs, though. They are just SGTCs with a static gap that has a very reproducible firing voltage and very low losses.
I've no doubt that the ball terminal works great, I just think it looks ugly. Who wants a Tesla coil that looks like a giant water faucet?
Steve Conner, Sun Sept 02 2007, 10:29AM
Yeah, Hazmatt, the SGTC was "solved" a couple of years ago and we all moved on to studying DRSSTCs. You can analyze the Piranha coils with the same theory as conventional SGTCs, though. They are just SGTCs with a static gap that has a very reproducible firing voltage and very low losses.
I've no doubt that the ball terminal works great, I just think it looks ugly. Who wants a Tesla coil that looks like a giant water faucet?
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Coronafix, Sun Sept 02 2007, 12:27PM
OMG Terry, I don't think I've ever seen a more user unfriendly program.
No offense, I may stick to Classic JavaTC.
Coronafix, Sun Sept 02 2007, 12:27PM
Terry Fritz wrote ...
You might need to get familiar with, and maybe even improve upon, ScanTesla...
You might need to get familiar with, and maybe even improve upon, ScanTesla...
OMG Terry, I don't think I've ever seen a more user unfriendly program.
No offense, I may stick to Classic JavaTC.
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Sept 02 2007, 05:47PM
Above all I'm more interested in HOW you guys are arriving at your answers, especially for the highly non-linear aspects of the coil like A.C. resistance and the real Q of the coil. The calculated Q of a coil from the D.C. resistance is not correct.
A.C. resistance is difficult to predict because of skin effect, proximity effect, charge mobility, skin depth, length of conductor, and local charging effects, these determin the real Q.
I need to know how these calculations are made for my paperwork, that's why I'm looking for things like source code, I need the why's and how's because they are vastly more important then a program that does it for me. It wouldn't be college research if I put it all into a program and had it solve the problem. So I am thankful for the source code.
Other then that, I'm trying to get a handle on the most optimal primary LC match and calculating coupling from the position of the coils, what a stress job that is.
I will believe the SGTC is solved when I have "The Book" in my hands. So far all I see are a lot of scattered puzzle pieces and linear approximations, and unfortunately I want to know more.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Sept 02 2007, 05:47PM
Above all I'm more interested in HOW you guys are arriving at your answers, especially for the highly non-linear aspects of the coil like A.C. resistance and the real Q of the coil. The calculated Q of a coil from the D.C. resistance is not correct.
A.C. resistance is difficult to predict because of skin effect, proximity effect, charge mobility, skin depth, length of conductor, and local charging effects, these determin the real Q.
I need to know how these calculations are made for my paperwork, that's why I'm looking for things like source code, I need the why's and how's because they are vastly more important then a program that does it for me. It wouldn't be college research if I put it all into a program and had it solve the problem. So I am thankful for the source code.
Other then that, I'm trying to get a handle on the most optimal primary LC match and calculating coupling from the position of the coils, what a stress job that is.
I will believe the SGTC is solved when I have "The Book" in my hands. So far all I see are a lot of scattered puzzle pieces and linear approximations, and unfortunately I want to know more.
Re: Secret PIRANHA-II files are released
Steve Conner, Mon Sept 03 2007, 10:54AM
AC resistance and Q of the resonator don't matter in a properly designed coil. People found that out by trial and error over the years on the Pupman list, so nobody really bothers to investigate it any more.
The reason is that the unloaded Q of the secondary can be a few hundred, but we find in practice that with a good streamer output going, the loaded Q drops to about 10. If you feel your secondary coil after a good run, it barely gets warm.
Another way of stating this would be that if the coil was so badly designed that the unloaded Q mattered, you would be frustrated by the poor spark output, scrap it, and make another one. :P
In all my simulations, I've always ignored the secondary wire resistance and treated it as an ideal LC circuit. If you're in a hurry, you can often just about ignore the primary resistance too
As far as I'm concerned, the only missing "puzzle piece" is a real-time dynamic streamer loading model. Since my mental (and computer) model of the Tesla coil is just a lossless matching network that connects an inverter (or pulse source) to a streamer load, like I explained above, it's useless unless I assume some kind of streamer load impedance to match into. The problem is that that impedance is highly non-linear. The network also has to cope with infinite load resistance to get the discharge lit in the first place.
I think Terry is working on one in ScanTesla as we speak. Once that is complete, he will be able to model a complete Tesla coil system in the box and nobody will need to make actual coils any more
Steve Conner, Mon Sept 03 2007, 10:54AM
AC resistance and Q of the resonator don't matter in a properly designed coil. People found that out by trial and error over the years on the Pupman list, so nobody really bothers to investigate it any more.
The reason is that the unloaded Q of the secondary can be a few hundred, but we find in practice that with a good streamer output going, the loaded Q drops to about 10. If you feel your secondary coil after a good run, it barely gets warm.
Another way of stating this would be that if the coil was so badly designed that the unloaded Q mattered, you would be frustrated by the poor spark output, scrap it, and make another one. :P
In all my simulations, I've always ignored the secondary wire resistance and treated it as an ideal LC circuit. If you're in a hurry, you can often just about ignore the primary resistance too
As far as I'm concerned, the only missing "puzzle piece" is a real-time dynamic streamer loading model. Since my mental (and computer) model of the Tesla coil is just a lossless matching network that connects an inverter (or pulse source) to a streamer load, like I explained above, it's useless unless I assume some kind of streamer load impedance to match into. The problem is that that impedance is highly non-linear. The network also has to cope with infinite load resistance to get the discharge lit in the first place.
I think Terry is working on one in ScanTesla as we speak. Once that is complete, he will be able to model a complete Tesla coil system in the box and nobody will need to make actual coils any more
Print this page