Wilderness Chemistry
kanzure, Sat May 19 2007, 03:20PMYesterday, I found Auerbach's Wilderness Medicine text, which is aimed towards producing effective medical professionals when in the outdoors-- past the confines of the hospital or university lab. So, whether the doc is in the forest, or in the middle of the corporate jungle, ideally some action could be taken to improve the well-being of the sickly, diseased, or injured.
Are there any books on wilderness chemistry? Not only would it be important to be able to check what elements make up potential food, but to show friends neat little tricks by quickly picking up dirt and a nearby miscellaneous object to ignite it, or show other cool phenomena, as well as the importance of understanding how to use the materials from the ground, such as ores, when we are not necessarily near our favorite sources of chemical information.
What would you include in a book on wilderness chemistry? What tools would be important to construct? Could anybody synthesize some pest repellant? Lots of ideas here ... guess it would be a step closer to answering what an 'ultimate chemist' should know.
- Bryan
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
Billybobjoe, Mon May 21 2007, 12:03AM
I'm assuming you know the potassium permanganate and antifreeze/glycerol firestarter trick?
What about improving the taste of already bacterially purified water by filtering it through charcoal from a fire?
Adding lime (from burned seashells) or crushed black walnut, hickory, or butternut husks to a pond to kill fish yet still yield them edible?
A fire piston or polishing the bottom of an aluminum can with chocolate to use as a sun-focusing-fire-starting mirror?
OK, they're not all chemistry related but still neat in my opinion.
Billybobjoe, Mon May 21 2007, 12:03AM
I'm assuming you know the potassium permanganate and antifreeze/glycerol firestarter trick?
What about improving the taste of already bacterially purified water by filtering it through charcoal from a fire?
Adding lime (from burned seashells) or crushed black walnut, hickory, or butternut husks to a pond to kill fish yet still yield them edible?
A fire piston or polishing the bottom of an aluminum can with chocolate to use as a sun-focusing-fire-starting mirror?
OK, they're not all chemistry related but still neat in my opinion.
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
kanzure, Mon May 21 2007, 12:42AM
- Bryan
kanzure, Mon May 21 2007, 12:42AM
Billybobjoe wrote ...
potassium permanganate
Ah, neat, one of the results in my queries showed a fire building paper. Also found some information on filtering and purifying water. potassium permanganate
Billybobjoe wrote ...
Adding lime (from burned seashells) or crushed black walnut, hickory, or butternut husks to a pond to kill fish yet still yield them edible?
What? Rather extreme, isn't it? And where then would you get your fish, who no longer reproduce? And your sun-focusing lense sounds good, too, if aluminum can be found nearby. By the way, there are some interesting links collected re: wilderness chemistry, here.Adding lime (from burned seashells) or crushed black walnut, hickory, or butternut husks to a pond to kill fish yet still yield them edible?
- Bryan
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
Billybobjoe, Mon May 21 2007, 12:58AM
The linked book looks really interesting, I may have to order a copy. Poisoning fish is more of an extreme survival move - that came from my copy of the "US ARMY SURVIVAL MANUAL". It's really interesting and you could probably find a copy on the 'net (I got mine at a local Barnes and Noble actually).
Billybobjoe, Mon May 21 2007, 12:58AM
The linked book looks really interesting, I may have to order a copy. Poisoning fish is more of an extreme survival move - that came from my copy of the "US ARMY SURVIVAL MANUAL". It's really interesting and you could probably find a copy on the 'net (I got mine at a local Barnes and Noble actually).
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
kanzure, Mon May 21 2007, 01:02AM
Not to discourage your ideas, I am more actively looking for "DIY chemistry"-- except with the special twist that, in the wild, you do not always have plastics, ceramics, aluminum foils, bottles, jugs, etc. You may have a ditch and a stick to start with, but surely there are some basic compounds that one would want to synthesize. =)
- Bryan
(maybe I should go look into some mining and minerals handbooks, or DIY analytical chemistry techniques)
kanzure, Mon May 21 2007, 01:02AM
Not to discourage your ideas, I am more actively looking for "DIY chemistry"-- except with the special twist that, in the wild, you do not always have plastics, ceramics, aluminum foils, bottles, jugs, etc. You may have a ditch and a stick to start with, but surely there are some basic compounds that one would want to synthesize. =)
- Bryan
(maybe I should go look into some mining and minerals handbooks, or DIY analytical chemistry techniques)
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
ragnar, Mon May 21 2007, 03:02AM
I saw something pretty neat recently -- a concave metal vessel used in snowy climates that doubles as a lensmaking contraption -- you melt ice into the bowl to make a big clear magnifier for starting fires.
ragnar, Mon May 21 2007, 03:02AM
I saw something pretty neat recently -- a concave metal vessel used in snowy climates that doubles as a lensmaking contraption -- you melt ice into the bowl to make a big clear magnifier for starting fires.
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
kanzure, Mon May 21 2007, 12:40PM
The closest contraption that I can find is Rob Bicevskis' ice lense. An improvement on the "fire from ice" method might be to freeze distilled water.
kanzure, Mon May 21 2007, 12:40PM
BlackPlasma wrote ...
a concave metal vessel used in snowy climates that doubles as a lensmaking contraption -- you melt ice into the bowl to make a big clear magnifier for starting fires.
a concave metal vessel used in snowy climates that doubles as a lensmaking contraption -- you melt ice into the bowl to make a big clear magnifier for starting fires.
The closest contraption that I can find is Rob Bicevskis' ice lense. An improvement on the "fire from ice" method might be to freeze distilled water.
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
Electroholic, Mon May 21 2007, 02:56PM
howabout making soap with ash and fat or tanning leather with the animal's own brain matter.
Electroholic, Mon May 21 2007, 02:56PM
howabout making soap with ash and fat or tanning leather with the animal's own brain matter.
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
Bored Chemist, Mon May 21 2007, 05:11PM
"An improvement on the "fire from ice" method might be to freeze distilled water. "
I must be missing something here; what's so great about distilled water? Nevermind the fact that I don't usually carry a lot of it with me.
If I was stuck out and needed water to freeze to make a lens to light a fire I would have a second problem, how to melt the ice to make water to freeze. Not to put too fine a point on it my first lens would be yellow.
Trust me, if I was stuck in the wilderness I'd be worrying about getting unstuck. Sure I could carry permanganate and glycerine with me but who, exactly, is that going to impress in the middle of nowhere? Wouldnt a box of waterproof matches be a vastly better idea?
OK, it's interesting to speculate whether or not I could smelt copper but the real question would be could I stay alive long enough to care about technology beyond my imediate needs of food water and shelter?
Fine, I know I could make soap from ashes and fat; do you think I would care how well washed I was? Wouldn't I be just a bit better employed trying to get out of the wilderness rather than worrying about soap? The Romans did without it, so I reckon I could.
As I say, like "what would you do if you won the lottery?" it's a fine topic but don't get carried away with the idea that it would be any real use.
Bored Chemist, Mon May 21 2007, 05:11PM
"An improvement on the "fire from ice" method might be to freeze distilled water. "
I must be missing something here; what's so great about distilled water? Nevermind the fact that I don't usually carry a lot of it with me.
If I was stuck out and needed water to freeze to make a lens to light a fire I would have a second problem, how to melt the ice to make water to freeze. Not to put too fine a point on it my first lens would be yellow.
Trust me, if I was stuck in the wilderness I'd be worrying about getting unstuck. Sure I could carry permanganate and glycerine with me but who, exactly, is that going to impress in the middle of nowhere? Wouldnt a box of waterproof matches be a vastly better idea?
OK, it's interesting to speculate whether or not I could smelt copper but the real question would be could I stay alive long enough to care about technology beyond my imediate needs of food water and shelter?
Fine, I know I could make soap from ashes and fat; do you think I would care how well washed I was? Wouldn't I be just a bit better employed trying to get out of the wilderness rather than worrying about soap? The Romans did without it, so I reckon I could.
As I say, like "what would you do if you won the lottery?" it's a fine topic but don't get carried away with the idea that it would be any real use.
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
kanzure, Mon May 21 2007, 10:06PM
Nobody said that you would be stuck in the wilderness. And if you have information on synthesizing some permanganate and glycerine, or making waterproof matches, or how to smelt copper, or making soap from ashes and fats, or tanning leather from animal brain matter, any of this would be appreciated.
- Bryan
kanzure, Mon May 21 2007, 10:06PM
BoredChemist wrote ...
I was utilizing an assumption that the light will hit particles in the ice formation, and the less these particles and obstructions appear, the less interference there will be in the path that light would otherwise take. How might we calculate how irrelevant this is to overall transmittance of light and how much heat is generated?kanzure wrote ...
An improvement on the "fire lense" method might be to freeze distilled water.
I must be missing something here; what's so great about distilled water? Nevermind the fact that I don't usually carry a lot of it with me.An improvement on the "fire lense" method might be to freeze distilled water.
Nobody said that you would be stuck in the wilderness. And if you have information on synthesizing some permanganate and glycerine, or making waterproof matches, or how to smelt copper, or making soap from ashes and fats, or tanning leather from animal brain matter, any of this would be appreciated.
- Bryan
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
Bored Chemist, Tue May 22 2007, 05:41PM
Take a look at an ice cube.
It's full of bubbles. That's what's going to limit how good your lens is. The only way I can think of to mke permanganate or glycerine starts off by assuming you can heat things ie that you have a fire. What were these materials for again?
I put in the idea of smelting copper for a reason; if you couldn't do it with stone age technology then we wouldn't have got to the bronze age. If your bit of wilderness doesn't have copper ore then you are stuck in the stone age unless you can smelt iron. You might just manage that; I'm not sure I could.
Bored Chemist, Tue May 22 2007, 05:41PM
Take a look at an ice cube.
It's full of bubbles. That's what's going to limit how good your lens is. The only way I can think of to mke permanganate or glycerine starts off by assuming you can heat things ie that you have a fire. What were these materials for again?
I put in the idea of smelting copper for a reason; if you couldn't do it with stone age technology then we wouldn't have got to the bronze age. If your bit of wilderness doesn't have copper ore then you are stuck in the stone age unless you can smelt iron. You might just manage that; I'm not sure I could.
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
Sulaiman, Tue May 22 2007, 06:48PM
I had some 'country' relatives who showed me a bit of chemistry,
if unsure of wild mushrooms boil them with some onion
if the onion goes black, don't eat the mushrooms.
(I've no idea if this is true/reliable, most of my mushrooms come from the shop/supermarket)
That reminds me, for very small mushrooms;
crush the stem between finger and thumb to expose to the air,
if the stem goes purple then you've got some 'interesting' mushrooms (psilosybin)
Sulaiman, Tue May 22 2007, 06:48PM
I had some 'country' relatives who showed me a bit of chemistry,
if unsure of wild mushrooms boil them with some onion
if the onion goes black, don't eat the mushrooms.
(I've no idea if this is true/reliable, most of my mushrooms come from the shop/supermarket)
That reminds me, for very small mushrooms;
crush the stem between finger and thumb to expose to the air,
if the stem goes purple then you've got some 'interesting' mushrooms (psilosybin)
Re: Wilderness Chemistry
Bjørn, Tue May 22 2007, 08:33PM
Mushrooms needs a very high level of care for several reasons. They are not consistent from place to place, so advice that is safe one place may be very unsafe another place. Some types of mushrooms that have been considered safe for hundreds of years have turned out to be unsafe under certain conditions, so don't trust a books completely.
There are probably 10 different poisons so even if onions should happen to detect poison in one case they will probably fail the 9 other cases.
You can extract dyes from different kinds of lichen and use it to colour wool. Many plants contains chemicals that can be extracted without too complicated procedures.
Bjørn, Tue May 22 2007, 08:33PM
Mushrooms needs a very high level of care for several reasons. They are not consistent from place to place, so advice that is safe one place may be very unsafe another place. Some types of mushrooms that have been considered safe for hundreds of years have turned out to be unsafe under certain conditions, so don't trust a books completely.
There are probably 10 different poisons so even if onions should happen to detect poison in one case they will probably fail the 9 other cases.
You can extract dyes from different kinds of lichen and use it to colour wool. Many plants contains chemicals that can be extracted without too complicated procedures.
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