Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Vaxian, Wed Apr 11 2007, 11:03AMI have been gearing up for another go at an electrolosys.
The problem I had before is the electrodes made a muck of corrosion after a short period. I have found a way around this by using Stainless electrodes.
Also the reaction is very slow.
I understand that adding Potassium Hydroxide to the water will speed up the reaction. The problem is where do you get Potash? And how much do you add?
Any experienced persons willing to throw me some tips would be appreciated.
Also tried the Lye /Aluminum reaction with limited results.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Chris, Wed Apr 11 2007, 01:24PM
Electrolysis is a very inefficient and slow means of generating hydrogen, but really any known means of hydrogen production are. How big of an engine is this? Remember that 1hp = 746W, so with piston engines being on the order of 20% efficient and electrolysis itself being inefficient you need upwards of half a megawatt of electricity to keep up with a car engine of appreciable power. You can figure the electrolysis/run time ratio is then very low with only 10kW or whatever you have available. Hydrogen is the least compact of all proposed fuels to store as well; you won't be able to run an engine for very long even off a high pressure cylinder or liquid hydrogen dewar. The best means of storage are metal hydrides, especially sodium or lithium borohydride.
Use graphite electrodes for a variety of electrolytes (I have found sulfuric acid errodes them though).
In any case for serious hydrogen production (though still puny compared to possible demand) you probably need to use steam cracking of natural gas.
Chris, Wed Apr 11 2007, 01:24PM
Electrolysis is a very inefficient and slow means of generating hydrogen, but really any known means of hydrogen production are. How big of an engine is this? Remember that 1hp = 746W, so with piston engines being on the order of 20% efficient and electrolysis itself being inefficient you need upwards of half a megawatt of electricity to keep up with a car engine of appreciable power. You can figure the electrolysis/run time ratio is then very low with only 10kW or whatever you have available. Hydrogen is the least compact of all proposed fuels to store as well; you won't be able to run an engine for very long even off a high pressure cylinder or liquid hydrogen dewar. The best means of storage are metal hydrides, especially sodium or lithium borohydride.
The problem I had before is the electrodes made a muck of corrosion after a short period. I have found a way around this by using Stainless electrodes.
Use graphite electrodes for a variety of electrolytes (I have found sulfuric acid errodes them though).
I understand that adding Potassium Hydroxide to the water will speed up the reaction. The problem is where do you get Potash?Potassium hydroxide is not potash. Potash is potassium carbonate and/or chloride. You can buy sodium or potassium hydroxide or make them with an amalgam cell or membrane cell. Just add enough until you get the desired current.
In any case for serious hydrogen production (though still puny compared to possible demand) you probably need to use steam cracking of natural gas.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Vaxian, Wed Apr 11 2007, 02:37PM
This is a horizontal shaft 5 HP briggs & stratton. I have run it on a variety of fuels. Natural Gas, Propane, Hydrogen
You have struck upon the dilemna of why Hydrogen isn't fueling more cars.
The American Hydrogen Society in Pheonix has a car and a truck.
Vancouver, BC and Chicago had 2 busses each which ran on hydrogen fuel cells, not sure if they are still in service.
You can buy kits to convert a car, the problem still remains.
The only viable method seems to be solar Hydrogen but still SLOW.
Thanks
Vaxian, Wed Apr 11 2007, 02:37PM
This is a horizontal shaft 5 HP briggs & stratton. I have run it on a variety of fuels. Natural Gas, Propane, Hydrogen
You have struck upon the dilemna of why Hydrogen isn't fueling more cars.
The American Hydrogen Society in Pheonix has a car and a truck.
Vancouver, BC and Chicago had 2 busses each which ran on hydrogen fuel cells, not sure if they are still in service.
You can buy kits to convert a car, the problem still remains.
The only viable method seems to be solar Hydrogen but still SLOW.
Thanks
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
uzzors2k, Wed Apr 11 2007, 03:10PM
Solar powered hydrogen electrolysis would take years to fill a tank with current technology. Sodium/potassium hydroxide is found in common lye and drain cleaner, just look for it on the label. (NaOH or KOH) Unlike salt, NaOH will be recreated when split. Na + H2O = NaOH + H, meaning you can fill it once with NaOH and then just keep adding water. (Theoretically) Run your cell at lower voltages, but at high currents. To achieve this use a good amount of electrolyte to allow for the current flow, and place the cells close to each other. Given the right conditions and enough power electrolysis doesn't need to be slow.
hydropowercar.com
uzzors2k, Wed Apr 11 2007, 03:10PM
Solar powered hydrogen electrolysis would take years to fill a tank with current technology. Sodium/potassium hydroxide is found in common lye and drain cleaner, just look for it on the label. (NaOH or KOH) Unlike salt, NaOH will be recreated when split. Na + H2O = NaOH + H, meaning you can fill it once with NaOH and then just keep adding water. (Theoretically) Run your cell at lower voltages, but at high currents. To achieve this use a good amount of electrolyte to allow for the current flow, and place the cells close to each other. Given the right conditions and enough power electrolysis doesn't need to be slow.
hydropowercar.com
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Pete, Wed Apr 11 2007, 04:48PM
If you have a bit of funds, as in around 20 to 30 dollars, I may suggest Muriatic acid and Zinc flashing.
Muriatic acid is a low grade hydrochloric acid that you can buy by the gallon from a few hardware stores around town. Now it's been a while since I've bought any, around 8 years, so maybe there might be problems today.
When you drop the zinc flashing, and I mean not much, into the muriatic acid it will react fast. I can fill a 3 foot party balloon on about 20 to 30 seconds. The problem is that you do get water vapor and that water vapor carries a small amount of acid with it. So please be careful.
But so far this has been my most favorite and memorable method for getting loads of hydrogen gas.
Pete
Pete, Wed Apr 11 2007, 04:48PM
If you have a bit of funds, as in around 20 to 30 dollars, I may suggest Muriatic acid and Zinc flashing.
Muriatic acid is a low grade hydrochloric acid that you can buy by the gallon from a few hardware stores around town. Now it's been a while since I've bought any, around 8 years, so maybe there might be problems today.
When you drop the zinc flashing, and I mean not much, into the muriatic acid it will react fast. I can fill a 3 foot party balloon on about 20 to 30 seconds. The problem is that you do get water vapor and that water vapor carries a small amount of acid with it. So please be careful.
But so far this has been my most favorite and memorable method for getting loads of hydrogen gas.
Pete
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Conundrum, Wed Apr 11 2007, 06:33PM
Also, potassium chlorise is 33% or so of Losalt (tm) so this should help.
-A
Conundrum, Wed Apr 11 2007, 06:33PM
Also, potassium chlorise is 33% or so of Losalt (tm) so this should help.
-A
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Eric, Wed Apr 11 2007, 06:59PM
I have found that aluminum foil and drain cleaner (lye) works great/fast although once the reaction gets going it runs very hot and some steam is generated. If you can get the zinc, Pete's idea is good. IIRC 2 gallons is only $4.70 at Home Depot here in so cal. It's a bit contaminated but gets the job done at ~29% concentration. Whatever method you use it would be best to dry it before use.
Eric, Wed Apr 11 2007, 06:59PM
I have found that aluminum foil and drain cleaner (lye) works great/fast although once the reaction gets going it runs very hot and some steam is generated. If you can get the zinc, Pete's idea is good. IIRC 2 gallons is only $4.70 at Home Depot here in so cal. It's a bit contaminated but gets the job done at ~29% concentration. Whatever method you use it would be best to dry it before use.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
stop4stuff, Wed Apr 11 2007, 09:33PM
Go careful if you try the alu/lye route things can get damn hot... & if you do, be sure to capture the electrons given off (alu air cell)
From what i found out in the past, 316 stainless is the stuff to go for if you're using sodium hydroxide (lye or caustic soda)
Something that may be of interest re electrolysers
stop4stuff, Wed Apr 11 2007, 09:33PM
Go careful if you try the alu/lye route things can get damn hot... & if you do, be sure to capture the electrons given off (alu air cell)
From what i found out in the past, 316 stainless is the stuff to go for if you're using sodium hydroxide (lye or caustic soda)
Something that may be of interest re electrolysers
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Vaxian, Wed Apr 11 2007, 10:45PM
Thanks for all the tips.
I have done the Lye / Aluminum reaction before. Filled a couple balloons, kids had fun, big kids had fun blowing them up - BOOM!
I figure a large pressure cooker would make a great vessel but 99% of them are Aluminum!!! Have been looking for a large Stainless Pr. cooker for a long time.
Vaxian, Wed Apr 11 2007, 10:45PM
Thanks for all the tips.
I have done the Lye / Aluminum reaction before. Filled a couple balloons, kids had fun, big kids had fun blowing them up - BOOM!
I figure a large pressure cooker would make a great vessel but 99% of them are Aluminum!!! Have been looking for a large Stainless Pr. cooker for a long time.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Chris, Thu Apr 12 2007, 12:06AM
That, or any other metal/acid or metal/base production is tens to hundreds of times more expensive than electrolysis of water, which is several times again more expensive than steam reforming, if you use store-bought ingredients. If you're making your own chemicals from salt or something just for that, it would just be way more complicated with more losses and more time. In short, chemicals like HCl or NaOH, as well as zinc or aluminum, are far too valuable to be used for the mundane role of hydrogen production. Since recycling those reagents will involve difficult fused salt electrolysis (to regenerate the reactive metals) and either hydrogen itself (for direct HCl production in an HCl furnace, again relatively difficult) or membrane cell electrolysis with fractional crystallization (for NaOH), clearly it is only practical to just use a simple aqueous electrolysis to make the hydrogen in the first place.
As another possibility for the ambitious, I suspect if you used the core from a catalytic converter (the ceramic honeycomb stuff with platinum in it) at around 850C, and fed with steam from a high pressure boiler (150psi, not very hard at all to achieve), someone with fairly basic tools could perform steam reforming of natural gas for hydrogen. A similar reaction could be carried out with air such as from an ordinary compressor under the same conditions, but with a lower hydrogen to CO production ratio.
The byproduct gases carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide must be removed of course. It might be possible to use a thin sheet of somewhat permeable material as a membrane to separate the hydrogen, then simply burn the carbon monoxide as it comes out yielding only relatively inert CO2. A hydrogenation reaction yielding either methanol or acetic acid with excess H2 could also be used as a means to eliminate carbon monoxide, and if you wanted to be inkeeping with the idea of hydrogen as a clean fuel with no greenhouse emissions this would probably be the only reasonable method.
Chris, Thu Apr 12 2007, 12:06AM
If you have a bit of funds, as in around 20 to 30 dollars, I may suggest Muriatic acid and Zinc flashing.
That, or any other metal/acid or metal/base production is tens to hundreds of times more expensive than electrolysis of water, which is several times again more expensive than steam reforming, if you use store-bought ingredients. If you're making your own chemicals from salt or something just for that, it would just be way more complicated with more losses and more time. In short, chemicals like HCl or NaOH, as well as zinc or aluminum, are far too valuable to be used for the mundane role of hydrogen production. Since recycling those reagents will involve difficult fused salt electrolysis (to regenerate the reactive metals) and either hydrogen itself (for direct HCl production in an HCl furnace, again relatively difficult) or membrane cell electrolysis with fractional crystallization (for NaOH), clearly it is only practical to just use a simple aqueous electrolysis to make the hydrogen in the first place.
As another possibility for the ambitious, I suspect if you used the core from a catalytic converter (the ceramic honeycomb stuff with platinum in it) at around 850C, and fed with steam from a high pressure boiler (150psi, not very hard at all to achieve), someone with fairly basic tools could perform steam reforming of natural gas for hydrogen. A similar reaction could be carried out with air such as from an ordinary compressor under the same conditions, but with a lower hydrogen to CO production ratio.
The byproduct gases carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide must be removed of course. It might be possible to use a thin sheet of somewhat permeable material as a membrane to separate the hydrogen, then simply burn the carbon monoxide as it comes out yielding only relatively inert CO2. A hydrogenation reaction yielding either methanol or acetic acid with excess H2 could also be used as a means to eliminate carbon monoxide, and if you wanted to be inkeeping with the idea of hydrogen as a clean fuel with no greenhouse emissions this would probably be the only reasonable method.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Bjørn, Thu Apr 12 2007, 02:02AM
Don't forget to think about safety. The energy required to ignite hydrogen is something like 20 uJ so it ignites very easily. The diffusion coefficient is large so it mixes fast with air and it is explosive at a wide range of mixture ratios.
If you are collecting enough hydrogen to run an engine you need to be careful.
Bjørn, Thu Apr 12 2007, 02:02AM
Don't forget to think about safety. The energy required to ignite hydrogen is something like 20 uJ so it ignites very easily. The diffusion coefficient is large so it mixes fast with air and it is explosive at a wide range of mixture ratios.
If you are collecting enough hydrogen to run an engine you need to be careful.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Coronafix, Thu Apr 12 2007, 03:20AM
I have heard that by pulsing the electrodes at about 42.8kHz, you use much less energy to seperate
the water into hydrogen and oxygen.
The theory is that it jiggles the water at its resonant frequency or one of its harmonics,
therefore not needing the brute force of a lot of current.
Has anyone tried this yet? I have been meaning to for some time, should be easy to setup.
Coronafix, Thu Apr 12 2007, 03:20AM
I have heard that by pulsing the electrodes at about 42.8kHz, you use much less energy to seperate
the water into hydrogen and oxygen.
The theory is that it jiggles the water at its resonant frequency or one of its harmonics,
therefore not needing the brute force of a lot of current.
Has anyone tried this yet? I have been meaning to for some time, should be easy to setup.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Bjørn, Thu Apr 12 2007, 04:16AM
Water molecules are extremely small. It is hard to imagine any resonance in the kHz range.
Have a look at this:
My speculation is that 42.8kHz is the resonant frequency of someones ultrasound tranducer in water that caused the release dissolved air from the water that was interpreted as hydrogen by someone that did not know what they were doing.
Bjørn, Thu Apr 12 2007, 04:16AM
Water molecules are extremely small. It is hard to imagine any resonance in the kHz range.
Have a look at this:
My speculation is that 42.8kHz is the resonant frequency of someones ultrasound tranducer in water that caused the release dissolved air from the water that was interpreted as hydrogen by someone that did not know what they were doing.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Coronafix, Thu Apr 12 2007, 06:11AM
Seems strange that a kHz frequency could affect it then, but it was definately an efficiency thing
rather than trapped air release.
There are several patents issued on it as well, to create parahydrogen.
Coronafix, Thu Apr 12 2007, 06:11AM
Seems strange that a kHz frequency could affect it then, but it was definately an efficiency thing
rather than trapped air release.
There are several patents issued on it as well, to create parahydrogen.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Myke, Thu Apr 12 2007, 06:16AM
The resonant frequency of water is around the frequency that microwave ovens operate.
Myke, Thu Apr 12 2007, 06:16AM
The resonant frequency of water is around the frequency that microwave ovens operate.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
AndrewM, Thu Apr 12 2007, 06:29AM
I seem to recall that this was discussed here at length and was debunked as a myth.
AndrewM, Thu Apr 12 2007, 06:29AM
Myke wrote ...
The resonant frequency of water is around the frequency that microwave ovens operate.
The resonant frequency of water is around the frequency that microwave ovens operate.
I seem to recall that this was discussed here at length and was debunked as a myth.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Bored Chemist, Thu Apr 12 2007, 04:54PM
"Also, potassium chlorise is 33% or so of Losalt (tm) so this should help."
I don't see chlorine production (as a by-product) helping a lot. Washing soda makes nearly as good an electrolyte as potassium hydroxide. Sodium hydroxide is effective, cheap and easy to get. The efficiency gain by using KOH isn't that great.
That stuff about parahydrogen and ultrasonic resonances of water is nonsense.
The microwave oven excites rotational resonances. The vibrations are in the infra red.
On the safety side, when our lab was setting up hydrogen generators we only bothered to look at the risk of a leak. It was presumed that, if there was a leak, the stuff would ignite. Storing hydrogen isn't something I'd recommend as an amateur project.
Bored Chemist, Thu Apr 12 2007, 04:54PM
"Also, potassium chlorise is 33% or so of Losalt (tm) so this should help."
I don't see chlorine production (as a by-product) helping a lot. Washing soda makes nearly as good an electrolyte as potassium hydroxide. Sodium hydroxide is effective, cheap and easy to get. The efficiency gain by using KOH isn't that great.
That stuff about parahydrogen and ultrasonic resonances of water is nonsense.
The microwave oven excites rotational resonances. The vibrations are in the infra red.
On the safety side, when our lab was setting up hydrogen generators we only bothered to look at the risk of a leak. It was presumed that, if there was a leak, the stuff would ignite. Storing hydrogen isn't something I'd recommend as an amateur project.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Coronafix, Thu Apr 12 2007, 11:11PM
So you've tried it then? The patents talked about using the reaction chamber
as a capacitor in a resonant circuit, so a coil is also involved.
Is this what you used?
Coronafix, Thu Apr 12 2007, 11:11PM
Bored Chemist wrote ...
That stuff about parahydrogen and ultrasonic resonances of water is nonsense.
That stuff about parahydrogen and ultrasonic resonances of water is nonsense.
So you've tried it then? The patents talked about using the reaction chamber
as a capacitor in a resonant circuit, so a coil is also involved.
Is this what you used?
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Marko, Fri Apr 13 2007, 12:31PM
I don't know if you guys tought anbout that, but if hydrognen produced such way is used to run an engine, acidic vapor will start destroying the engine rapidly. It would need to be neutralised somehow before that.
I used to put really small amounts of zinc in muratic acid to get the zinc chloride, in a small dish on my window letting the hydrogen escape... still, enough of nasty acidic vapor ended in my room to make me itchy and my eyes red.
I did that only outside after that!
If you thorw a large bunch of aluminium foil into acid and it starts to boil, youa re asking for trouble!
Except aluminium and zinc, steel wool also works and reaction is somewhat less violent.
But, all those ways are still much more expensive on long run than electrolysis alone...
Marko, Fri Apr 13 2007, 12:31PM
I have found that aluminum foil and drain cleaner (lye) works great/fast
I don't know if you guys tought anbout that, but if hydrognen produced such way is used to run an engine, acidic vapor will start destroying the engine rapidly. It would need to be neutralised somehow before that.
I used to put really small amounts of zinc in muratic acid to get the zinc chloride, in a small dish on my window letting the hydrogen escape... still, enough of nasty acidic vapor ended in my room to make me itchy and my eyes red.
I did that only outside after that!
If you thorw a large bunch of aluminium foil into acid and it starts to boil, youa re asking for trouble!
Except aluminium and zinc, steel wool also works and reaction is somewhat less violent.
But, all those ways are still much more expensive on long run than electrolysis alone...
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Chris, Fri Apr 13 2007, 02:23PM
I'm assuming the acidic vapors would be recondensed, which would be much easier if you used sulfuric instead of hydrochloric acid. Still, perhaps if I restate another way, it will be easier to see the inherent fallacy with that method:
To produce an amount of hydrogen equivalent in weight to a gallon of gasoline, it would require 114kg of HCl gas (82 gallons of muriatic acid) and 28kg (62.5lbs) of aluminum. To make an amount equivalent in energy to a gallon of gasoline would require only 30 gallons of muriatic acid and 23lbs of aluminum though, but good luck getting that to fit on your lawnmower.
Chris, Fri Apr 13 2007, 02:23PM
I'm assuming the acidic vapors would be recondensed, which would be much easier if you used sulfuric instead of hydrochloric acid. Still, perhaps if I restate another way, it will be easier to see the inherent fallacy with that method:
To produce an amount of hydrogen equivalent in weight to a gallon of gasoline, it would require 114kg of HCl gas (82 gallons of muriatic acid) and 28kg (62.5lbs) of aluminum. To make an amount equivalent in energy to a gallon of gasoline would require only 30 gallons of muriatic acid and 23lbs of aluminum though, but good luck getting that to fit on your lawnmower.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Vaxian, Fri Apr 13 2007, 03:14PM
You are crushing my dream of an aluminum powered car.
The reason for my experiments was always conceptual.
Guess I will go to the welding shop again if I want to keep experimenting and use the home brew methods for balloons.
Vaxian, Fri Apr 13 2007, 03:14PM
To make an amount equivalent in energy to a gallon of gasoline would require only 30 gallons of muriatic acid and 23lbs of aluminum though, but good luck getting that to fit on your lawnmower.
You are crushing my dream of an aluminum powered car.
The reason for my experiments was always conceptual.
Guess I will go to the welding shop again if I want to keep experimenting and use the home brew methods for balloons.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Bored Chemist, Sat Apr 14 2007, 12:46PM
"So you've tried it then? The patents talked about using the reaction chamber
as a capacitor in a resonant circuit, so a coil is also involved.
Is this what you used?!
Of course I didn't try it; I have better things to do. The physics and spectroscopy of water are well know and there simply isn't anything there that could resonate at those frequencies. The patent office doesn't check that things work. There is no guarantee that, just because something is in a patent, you should believe it works.
In this case, if it worked as indicated, it would be a "free energy" machine. Sush topics are banned here because they are a waste of time and bandwidth.
Producing Hydrogen from aluminium and lye certainly won't produce any acid vapours- the lye would neutralise the acid. The spray of sodim hydroxide/ sodium aluminate solution would screw up the engine.
The whole idea of using aluminium to make hydrogen is bound to be less efficient than electrolysis because electrolysis (with all it's inefficiencies) is used to make the aluminium in the first place.
Bored Chemist, Sat Apr 14 2007, 12:46PM
"So you've tried it then? The patents talked about using the reaction chamber
as a capacitor in a resonant circuit, so a coil is also involved.
Is this what you used?!
Of course I didn't try it; I have better things to do. The physics and spectroscopy of water are well know and there simply isn't anything there that could resonate at those frequencies. The patent office doesn't check that things work. There is no guarantee that, just because something is in a patent, you should believe it works.
In this case, if it worked as indicated, it would be a "free energy" machine. Sush topics are banned here because they are a waste of time and bandwidth.
Producing Hydrogen from aluminium and lye certainly won't produce any acid vapours- the lye would neutralise the acid. The spray of sodim hydroxide/ sodium aluminate solution would screw up the engine.
The whole idea of using aluminium to make hydrogen is bound to be less efficient than electrolysis because electrolysis (with all it's inefficiencies) is used to make the aluminium in the first place.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Electroholic, Sat Apr 14 2007, 01:46PM
hahaha, that is so true.
Electroholic, Sat Apr 14 2007, 01:46PM
Bored Chemist wrote ...
The whole idea of using aluminium to make hydrogen is bound to be less efficient than electrolysis because electrolysis (with all it's inefficiencies) is used to make the aluminium in the first place.
The whole idea of using aluminium to make hydrogen is bound to be less efficient than electrolysis because electrolysis (with all it's inefficiencies) is used to make the aluminium in the first place.
hahaha, that is so true.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Vaxian, Sun Apr 15 2007, 06:37AM
Finally found a Stainless Steel pressure cooker today at a yard sale fer 2 bucks!
Been looking for one for years to do the aluminum/lye reaction for blowing up balloons.
I'm surprised someone hasn't brought up the hindenburgh!
Here's an interesting bit - The hydrogen burned up in the air in moments, the diesel fuel that ran the engines burned on the ground for hours afterwards, which was more dangerous?
Vaxian, Sun Apr 15 2007, 06:37AM
Finally found a Stainless Steel pressure cooker today at a yard sale fer 2 bucks!
Been looking for one for years to do the aluminum/lye reaction for blowing up balloons.
I'm surprised someone hasn't brought up the hindenburgh!
Here's an interesting bit - The hydrogen burned up in the air in moments, the diesel fuel that ran the engines burned on the ground for hours afterwards, which was more dangerous?
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Bjørn, Sun Apr 15 2007, 07:47AM
They are dangerous in completely different ways. Getting diesel to explode is hard even if you try to, hydrogen tend to cause explosions at every opportunity. A pressure cooker is pretty close to a bomb when you have hydrogen in it. You should take great care that air does not enter it and make sure that if it explodes it does not do any harm.
Bjørn, Sun Apr 15 2007, 07:47AM
They are dangerous in completely different ways. Getting diesel to explode is hard even if you try to, hydrogen tend to cause explosions at every opportunity. A pressure cooker is pretty close to a bomb when you have hydrogen in it. You should take great care that air does not enter it and make sure that if it explodes it does not do any harm.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Vaxian, Sun Apr 15 2007, 06:12PM
I will of course add an overpressure release valve of around 10-15 psi, don't need an extra piece of hydrogen propelled stainless steel taking my eye out.
Vaxian, Sun Apr 15 2007, 06:12PM
A pressure cooker is pretty close to a bomb when you have hydrogen in it. You should take great care that air does not enter it and make sure that if it explodes it does not do any harm.
I will of course add an overpressure release valve of around 10-15 psi, don't need an extra piece of hydrogen propelled stainless steel taking my eye out.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Chris, Sun Apr 15 2007, 07:35PM
A pressure relief valve won't help if there is a hydrogen/air explosion inside. It will burn VERY fast and probably just explode anyway. I would purge it with argon or something before starting.
Chris, Sun Apr 15 2007, 07:35PM
A pressure relief valve won't help if there is a hydrogen/air explosion inside. It will burn VERY fast and probably just explode anyway. I would purge it with argon or something before starting.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Vaxian, Sun Apr 15 2007, 11:51PM
Good call!
Food for thought, maybe put dry ingredients in first, pump out all air to create a vacuum, then let the water be sucked in, then collect the hydrogen?
I am glad you are all so concerned about my welfare, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
Seriously, this is why I posted, to get others wisdom before jumping back into hydrogen experiments again.
Vaxian, Sun Apr 15 2007, 11:51PM
A pressure relief valve won't help if there is a hydrogen/air explosion inside. It will burn VERY fast and probably just explode anyway. I would purge it with argon or something before starting.
Good call!
Food for thought, maybe put dry ingredients in first, pump out all air to create a vacuum, then let the water be sucked in, then collect the hydrogen?
I am glad you are all so concerned about my welfare, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
Seriously, this is why I posted, to get others wisdom before jumping back into hydrogen experiments again.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Dr. Shark, Wed May 02 2007, 12:39PM
Hang on! Did you say you powered a B&S Lawnmower four-stroke with hydrogen? That is quite an achivement, and frankly, you must be very brave! The biggest problem I see with this is reliablility, gasoline is supposed to burn slowly (read 1ms ballbark) and not supposed to explode instantly. I'd expect an engine designed for gasoline to fail quickly and spectacularly if run on hydrogen for a prolonged time under full load.
Can you comment on this?
Dr. Shark, Wed May 02 2007, 12:39PM
Hang on! Did you say you powered a B&S Lawnmower four-stroke with hydrogen? That is quite an achivement, and frankly, you must be very brave! The biggest problem I see with this is reliablility, gasoline is supposed to burn slowly (read 1ms ballbark) and not supposed to explode instantly. I'd expect an engine designed for gasoline to fail quickly and spectacularly if run on hydrogen for a prolonged time under full load.
Can you comment on this?
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
sparky, Mon May 28 2007, 02:14PM
Hydrogen powered engine aren't new - but getting to work is quite an achievement. Vancouver has a ballard fuel cell powered vehicle in its fleet of buses. For the 2010 winter Olympics we are using a pure Hydrogen powered bus - its already in service. Practicality sake - pure hydrogen burning in a vehicle isn't practical - but mixing the gas with oxygen would be pretty high powered stuff. I'd hate to see a fire and the fuel station!!
Damn.
sparky, Mon May 28 2007, 02:14PM
Hydrogen powered engine aren't new - but getting to work is quite an achievement. Vancouver has a ballard fuel cell powered vehicle in its fleet of buses. For the 2010 winter Olympics we are using a pure Hydrogen powered bus - its already in service. Practicality sake - pure hydrogen burning in a vehicle isn't practical - but mixing the gas with oxygen would be pretty high powered stuff. I'd hate to see a fire and the fuel station!!
Damn.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Ken M., Mon May 28 2007, 03:48PM
Not that it gives a lot of info to the subject but If you want to see a bunch of different hydrogen cells working, hit up youtube and search for Jake cells. One guy had a ford f150 I think running off the hydrogen produced from his cell.
Ken M., Mon May 28 2007, 03:48PM
Not that it gives a lot of info to the subject but If you want to see a bunch of different hydrogen cells working, hit up youtube and search for Jake cells. One guy had a ford f150 I think running off the hydrogen produced from his cell.
Re: Hydrogen Production for running gas engines
Bored Chemist, Tue May 29 2007, 09:29AM
"Practicality sake - pure hydrogen burning in a vehicle isn't practical"
Greenland doesn't agree with you.
"but mixing the gas with oxygen would be pretty high powered stuff. I'd hate to see a fire and the fuel station!! "
and what fuel depot would you like to see catch fire? It goes with being fuel that these things are flammable.
Bored Chemist, Tue May 29 2007, 09:29AM
"Practicality sake - pure hydrogen burning in a vehicle isn't practical"
Greenland doesn't agree with you.
"but mixing the gas with oxygen would be pretty high powered stuff. I'd hate to see a fire and the fuel station!! "
and what fuel depot would you like to see catch fire? It goes with being fuel that these things are flammable.
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