Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
ConKbot of Doom, Sun Feb 25 2007, 02:52AM

If you must, definitely stick to small batches, I.E. 1g or less. And the Iodine gas mdae by the decomposition may stain the surface the NI3 is on.

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
AndrewM, Sun Feb 25 2007, 03:28AM

I tried it once, but it didn't work.

I recrystalized I2 from tincture, and tried to use household ammonia (low conc.), but after a good soak and dry it was hardly explosive... in fact, it seemed just like regular I2.

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
Sulaiman, Sun Feb 25 2007, 03:45AM

In my youth NI3 was one of my favourites.

BEWARE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whilst moist NI3 is quite stable - when dry it's INCREDIBLY UNSTABLE.
(your breath, a landing housefly etc. will cause detonation)

NI3 is EXTREMELY powerful, much much more than gunpowder, magnesium/permanganate etc.)

Two cautionary tales;

The largest ammount I ever made was about 10 grammes
I left it in a pile (heaped-teaspoon quantity) on a house brick in the garage to dry
with a big DANGER - DO NOT TOUCH sign.
My father said he couldn't resist and got a very long screwdriver (about 18") to 'poke' it
His ears were ringing for hours and the end of the screwdriver bent up!

My friend/accomplice made a batch and before it completely dried
he flicked little bits out of his bedroom window to hear/watch it explode below.
Whilst 'playing' the NI3 kept on drying until .....BANG in his face.
Luckily like me he wore spectacles so his eyes were protected from the (small) blast
but the rest of his face was Iodine red/brown for many days
Talk about red-faced - he didn't come to school for a week!

I had lots of fun with NI3,
I ABSOLUTELY agree that 1g is a sensible batch quantity.

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
..., Sun Feb 25 2007, 05:29AM

for refrence

Just don't blow yourself up

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
ragnar, Sun Feb 25 2007, 05:51AM

Ya, the stains are impossible to remove -- worse than trying to get ferric chloride residues or chain grease off your hands -- it's there for good!

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
GreySoul, Sun Feb 25 2007, 05:51AM

Sounds good to me. I'm not planning to go over 1g of wet compound, considerably less when dry. But that's something I have a question about. I've been told that the wet compund is stable by most sources yet others caution that the wet compound can still detonate, anyone care to shed more detailed light on that?


Also, I have heard sodium thisulfate will remove the stains, and I have plenty of that in my photo chemicals. Any truth to it?

Thanks

-Doug

I've been watching too much Brainiac

EDIT: mmmm archives. Thanks '...' guy :)

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Feb 25 2007, 08:46AM

Are you kidding?! The stains are not Permanant! Iodine is probably the easiest stain I have to remove. Just use an excess of Ammonia and it will decolorize the stain. Its the same as decolorized Iodine.

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
GreySoul, Tue Feb 27 2007, 02:20AM

ok, take one: failure

I used approx 2oz of commercial strength Parssons brand lemon scented ammonia liquid (I have no idea what concentration it is, but it smells much stronger than grocery store brands) and approx 1/2 gram of 99.8% I2 crystals. I let them sit in a small dish, with periodic aggitation for about 4 hours.

The resulting crystals were pitch black, as opposed to the kinda silver gray blue color of the original I2 crystals. When settled and dried on a filter paper the paper turned the purple / brown color that iodine normally gives, and the resulting crystals haven't sublimed away yet. The crystals are bone dry (30+ minutes in the desert) and they seem to be totally stable, nonreactive... I've thumped the pile with the back of a spoon and nothing happend.


So any thoughts on where I went wrong? My first thought is impurities in the ammonia, but I'm open to correction :)

If I need better ammonia I'll just make a condensor tomarrow (I'm a glassblower, btw) and buy some dry ice....I have acetone. Hassle....

unless someone here can suggest a typical any-town local source for unadulterated ammonia solution. I tried home depot, local grocery stores, and a nursery/garden supply..the later could only order me ammonia and said I'd need a license (really? In America? A license to buy non-anhydrous, water based solution of ammonia? I thought you needed the anyhydrous stuff to make meth? *sigh*)

the local chemical suplier (albuchem) seems to have shut down recently... daggumit


edit:

random thought....NH3 boils at like -33c, assuming the water, soaps and surficants will remain somewhat more stable at room temp, would putting the I2 crystals in one dish, and the ammonia water (NH4+ and OH-) in another dish, and sealing them both in a tupperware container work?... would the NH3 escape as a gas, and react with the I2 to form NI3 and some hydrogen gas? the obvious problem I see is that a dry environment would result.... could I wet the I2 with methanol or something first?

Sorry if these seem like inane questions...my knowledge of chemistry is somewhere between a good highschool level and college level, but it's been a while since i've put it to use. I've read all the NI3 stuff in the archives and can't troubleshoot this myself (maybe I could, but considering what I am dealing with....)

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Feb 27 2007, 02:40AM

Whats wrong is you're using too much Ammonia and doing it much too long.

Put your crystals on a filter paper, wet them with Ammonina, then fold the filter paper. When the paper is dry and crisp, be careful how you tap it.

Matt

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
GreySoul, Tue Feb 27 2007, 04:08AM

LOL...I spoke too soon!

If you could see the grin on my face (or hear the neighbors dogs barking)...wheee.

ME = + + +

It's 9:00pm here hope I didnt disturb anyone.


Apprently it takes longer for the crystals to dry when full of surficants and soaps. 90 minutes did the trick.... my kitchen sink is purple....

How toxic are these fumes btw? I got the window open, but I could still smell traces in the air.

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Feb 27 2007, 05:25AM

Okay, hold on a sec here. You're playing with chemicals and don't know how toxic they are, *sighs* okay.

Iodine is pretty bad stuff. It's fairly corrosive, and as far as acute/systemic exposure, you're just going to have to look it up. The general rule I have been told is that if you can smell it, the concentration is too high.

Check with the Wikipedia, or look for Iodine and MSDS.

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
GreySoul, Tue Feb 27 2007, 07:27AM

oops. Don't get me wrong. I read multiple MSDS forms (and I know how to read them...) long before I started any of this. I found some conflicting reports on LD's in a few of them, but nothing that worried me too much. (like why is a LD50 of I2 on a rat something like 1000x that of a human? seems off, but I'm not a biologist, and I dont do the toxicology research stuff personally)

I always value any firsthand experiance, or otherwise freely shared experiances and knowledge...that's why I asked.

I know I'm new here, and I have to get to know you all....that will take time.... but we can begin here :)

I'm 28, I've been in school 9 years now (University of New Mexico). I started off in EE, then moved to CE/CS for a couple years before I gave it up for Fine Art. I'll have my BFA this May. I'm a bit of a jack-of-all Studio Arts, mostly I work with glass (lampworking), Printmaking, and metal (small scale precious metals, and some bronze foundry work). The toxins I face as an artist are often greater than those faced by many other fields if for no other reason than most artists don't know what they're using half the time. Unlike most art students I've taken classes in physics, chemistry, calculus, etc...

My goal is to make new tools, new materials, and new outlets for artists. If I go to grad school it will be for material sciences or chemE or something like that.

Anyways, in my spare time, for the last 20 years or so, I mostly play with fire, high voltage, women, chemicals, guns, cameras, computers, lasers (Light Ampllfication by Stimulated Emission of Radiation, no I didnt have to look it up). Besides making black powder, and playing (and I use that in the most perfessional useage of the term playing) with premade compounds, the actual manufacture of such compunds is fairly unexplored terrirotry for me. Some of the notation, and terminology I have to learn as I go along - even for the basic stuff.

So you guys have already been a great resource for most of my hobbies.

As far as the Interwebs go... I've been floating around online since the early 90s, I think my first BBS gateway account was in 92 or 93.... I have run forums of my own, and been member of more than I can count at this point. By no means green. I've read every page of interest to me in both archives, and the new board. I help run a wiki, so I'm no stranger to that little gem. But I am also not going to believe something based solely on wikipedia - look up elephant and go through it's history.

<-- elephants on wp.

What really did suprise me tho is that as long as I've been on various lists and forums, I've only just now come across 4hv (not true, I came here a while back reading up on ferrofluid but I didn't hang around)

Anyways, I sincerely appreciate your help and your concern, but please rest assured I'm not a complete moron. I am plenty capable of doing stupid things from time to time, but I try to take things seriously when my health or life is on the line. I can clean, repair or replace sinks, floors, tables, bowls, flatware, etc...and I know it's not the same with body parts

I'm still alive - I prefer to stay that way.

Anyways Hazmatt, thanks for the advice and everything and good to meet you. Look forward to contributing as much as I take from you all. If you have any questions or concerns for me, I'm all ears. If you want refernces I can get those :)

-Doug

p.s. I applogize for my attrocious spelling - and me an English minor... heh. It's late and I'm tired, and my ears are still kinda ringing. FWIW, I knew there would be "smoke" and a bang... the bang was a lot more than i bargained for and the off gas was much less than I figured. I caught a wiff of the stuff, but nothing close to somethign I'm concerned about at this point...had much worse in my system... still, figurede I'd ask.

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
Myke, Tue Feb 27 2007, 03:08PM

Maybe set up a fan to help ventilate you kitchen?

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
GreySoul, Tue Feb 27 2007, 04:14PM

one in front of the open window :)

Sorry, didnt mean to cause any concern last night... I shouldnt be posting past my bed time :) but yeah.... kitchen is fine.

And before anyone worries about my "kitchen" it's what I call the entire back half of my house, and I was no where near my food stuffs. I have a food kitchen and a screwing-around-in kitchen...

Anyways all, thanks for the support, and now I can put NI3 on the long list of stupid stuff I've done so I'll know better next time

-Doug

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
Swany, Wed Feb 28 2007, 04:35PM

NI3 is the least stable of the nitrogen halides due to the size of I and electronegativity. NF3 is not even recognised as explosive, whereas NCl3 is a reactive, sensitive, explosive liquid (prepared by electrolysis of conc. NH4Cl solution with graphite electrodes). I imagine NBr3 would be similar.

Relative to 'real' explosives, nitrogen halides are... a novelty. Of course, they are still dangerous, however 10 grams of a brisant high explosive, would have utterly destroyed the screwdriver and probably the hand holding it.

The NI3 is not actually NI3 per se, it is NI3.(NH3)x, where the amount of amine groups is dependant upon the ammonia concentration. The lesser concentration of ammonia, the more amine groups, the higher sensativity.... I THINK. I am at school and cannot check my references, however I would encourage someone to prepare NI3 with 10% ammonia and 30% ammonia and test the sensitivity difference.

Also, Braniacs is a terrible show for *real* science geeks; they fake everything.

Slightly tangent, though interesting, if you are truely insane and looking for terribly terribly sensitive high explosives that are brisant, I may suggest mod edit - you don't want to know! That alone is suicidal, but the resulting liquid is much more brisant than nitroglycerine. Sensitivity is extreme as well.

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
GreySoul, Thu Mar 01 2007, 12:41AM

um....yeah.....

I think NI3 is about as far as I'm going to take this hairbrained tangent. I've read about the others and have no desire to die.

Also, I tied the above suggestion of briefly washing I2 with commercial strength ammonia and letting the "package" dry... it didnt work. I got a few little snappy crystals, less than a 1% yeild.

letting the I2 sit for a few hours in the soapy ammonia solution seems to have worked...


as for brainiacs... yeah - I know mostof it is faked, or at least highly edited to make things look simpler than they are - but like, peter logans secret formula IS Ni3, they just dont show how he makes it, or what it's made with.... the results are real.

Their scientific method leaves much to be desired, I don't considerit it to be educational as much as it's entertaining. I love the explosive girls... I mean, who can argue against the idea os giving a half dozen strippers / models high explosives? Otr letting a Tina Turner look-alike blow up cars and RVs with a bunsen burner?

it's not Mr Wizard, but it's almost as fun to watch :)

Re: NI3 - taboo? Discuss?
Bjørn, Thu Mar 01 2007, 01:09AM

It seems like this thread has reached the end of it's useful life so I am closing it.