Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Dr. Shark, Mon Feb 12 2007, 06:07PM

There should be more geek-friendly venture capitalists like you around, CM. 500$ might just cover the beer expenses developing something like this , I'm in!

Just to clarify the rules regarding geographic locations: Are classical renewable energies like wind and solar power out, because you could always find a little spot on the planet that is dark all year round or has zero wind? I fear this would disqualify 99% of all entries, since even ionic energy from the atmosphere ultimately depends on solar irradiation and air movement.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
CM, Mon Feb 12 2007, 06:13PM

Joe:

Good point, I bumped it to US$5000. Solar or wind are acceptable entries if the 4 criterias are met. CM

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Eric, Mon Feb 12 2007, 07:58PM

Do you need to convert the energy to hydrogen and then convert it to physical work or can you just do the work directly?

Are storage devices (ultracapacitors/batteries) allowed to accumulate the generated power? I'm not clear from the above description whether they are allowed or not.

Oh, and one other thing. Does this device actually have to be built or is the design/idea enough.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Nik, Mon Feb 12 2007, 10:25PM

I submit my little brother. He is, with some coaxing, probably able to stay awake for 22.8 hrs a day.

He can be used anywhere.

He can be fuled with fully renewable consumeables.

And he can easily lift a 10lb weight 5 feet off the ground (and if needed he can drive a conventional generator to power a fule cell).

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
..., Mon Feb 12 2007, 10:48PM

i would say that the 'produces enough h2 to lift a 10lb weight 5ft using a motor/witch' is sorta of vague, since not all fuel cells/motors are considered equal...

Lets see, 5lbs= 4.536kg, 5ft=1.524m, and gravity is 9.6m/s, so that is 66.3J of kenetic energy. Lets assume that our motor is 50% eficient, and then the fuel cell is 65% (I don't really know) we need 200J of H2. So, since the deltaT for H2+.5O2->H2O is -286kj we would need 0.015L of H2.

What do you just say that over a 24hr period it needs to produce 15ml amount of H2 gas?

Also, is there some way to send a preliminary plans so that we can comfirm that we are not breaking any rules, and that our idea hasn't been taken?

Finally, is there any size limit?

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Steve Conner, Mon Feb 12 2007, 11:02PM

+1 on Nik's little brother. We could also have Tesladownunder pedalling a generator, since he has completed a 24 hour bike ride in the past (IIRC)

However, if you read the fine print, the device has to produce power for 22.5 hours per day for 6 months, so unless you actually want to kill your little brother from exhaustion, it's not too practical. A team of 20 people pedalling for 2 hours a day each might work

Read finer still though, and the spec is very vague on power output, so to make it as easy as possible, I would take it to mean that the device must produce enough power to lift one 10lb weight 5ft each day. That is only 75J (or 66 even?) of energy per 24 hours. One joule is one watt-second.

So, a bike generator is massive overkill. I could crank the hand generator from one of those freeplay radios for a minute each morning to charge one of those 1 farad audio booster caps, and have a power source that meets CM's criteria to the letter. Note that supercapacitors are not "batteries, mediums or gases".

This would work anywhere a human can turn a handle, and I can run off renewable materials such as water, granola and dolphin friendly tuna, so I claim the $5k prize. If you need to see a demonstration, I can build it for about 40 bucks. Heck, I could save 40 bucks and lift the 10lb weight 5ft every day myself. Now I come to think of it, I could hang a 10lb weight on a 5ft string hooked up to a falling weight generator like stop4stuff's, and wind it up every morning...

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
..., Mon Feb 12 2007, 11:23PM

Well, he does say that is has to produce energy for 95% of the time, so you still have to be awake all of the time.

But I would say that a tank of like 10 hamsters and a few running weels would do the job just fine. Just add a few coffee beans into the food dish :p

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Eric, Mon Feb 12 2007, 11:58PM

How about a quarter square kilometer antenna capturing the 3 degree blackbody radiation. That's about a watt continuous, anytime, anywhere. Assume a conversion efficiency of 160GHz radiation to 'useable' power of 1% and you've got joules to spare.

Gosh, I hope nobody steals my idea.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
AndrewM, Tue Feb 13 2007, 03:24AM

Regarding rule #2, and #3, since we're not creating matter from energy, this machine HAS to consume some raw material (like water, for example)... and yet, liquid water is not practical or easy to come by at the south pole. please clairfy.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Feb 13 2007, 08:21AM

You're kidding right?!

I've already thought of that one. It's really simple. It's just a long heat exchanger drilled a suitable depth into the crust of the earth where a closed circuit of a liquid medium circulates, and turns a turbine at the surface. It works continuously because the medium cools as it reaches the surface and is pumped through the circuit by the hotter liquid down below. Mr. Wizard demonstrated it while the show was still on the air.

It works everywhere, is continuous output, burns nothing, and you could turn it into a 'farm' if you desired. AND to top it off, it uses existing technology. If you look into SULPHUR extraction, you would just use the same plumbing as the Sulphur extraction with the exception of making it a bit deeper to absorb enough thermal energy.

That's my $.02

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Carbon_Rod, Tue Feb 13 2007, 09:22AM

5 grand? Hmmm... such a device is worth exponentially more.
Just to clarify, You are asking for around 3 joules/hour constant flow output.

Is the Hydrogen really necessary?
You should need around 6 joules/hour constant flow for regular electrolysis to get the power you need back out of the fuel cell later. Plus more for other losses.

If physical size limits, and cost per joule is not an issue then yes it is currently is achievable -- just not very practical as the design I recall violates the rule of no battery in part of the process. However as some capacitors can last a long time are they in fair spec?

By "all season" did you mean immune to things like lightning strikes, forest fire, tornado, and hurricane? Or.. just normal temperatures.

This sounds somewhat like a mini-$25 million prize offered by Richard Brandson.

The 150 joules/day unit can be built for under $100 per unit...
(and no its not a hamster...)

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
CM, Tue Feb 13 2007, 03:25PM

THIS is the type of brainstorming I love to hear! Very few things I enjoy more than sitting in a room full of smart engineers and techs (visions from my past) and listening to them brainstorm about how to accomplish a common goal... rather than back biting each other about how they can't accomplish a goal. Eric - I like your idea, it has potential. Nic- pretty funny, but human power is out, slave labor isn’t a politically or legally acceptable form of ‘alternative power’, besides, item 3) incorporates the phrase “no man-made”, but I’ve clarified the language for other readers. Remember guys and gals, the purpose of this contest isn’t to try and find a legal loophole to slip through to win money; it is to move us forward in technology, not backward to slave labor sources of energy. Carbon, I agree with you, a device that can fulfill the contest rules would be worth much much more, and I’m prepared to consider assisting in early stage financing of a genuine winner, but not somebody who manages to find a loophole to slip through. The reason for the hydrogen requirement driving a motor as proof of work, addresses two important issues in the near future, 1) production of hydrogen, 2) utilization of hydrogen as proof of work. Do I expect $5000 to cover all expenses of you producing a device that meets the requirements, probably not, but it’s a small step in the right direction. Much more $ could be made available. Its already prompted you fine folks into brainstorming together, who knows, one of you may turn out to be the next Edison or Tesla thinking right now how to crack this technological nut. To me, it doesn’t matter who does it, as long as it eventually gets done before we ruin our planet or are forced to live back in the stone age due to lack of power. The device doesn’t have to be hurricane proof etc…. the phrase “all seasons”, simply reinforces the concept that the device works continuously (95% duty cycle) around the year, anywhere on earth. Clearly if an earthquake or acts of nature destroy the device, that of course, would be an exception. On the matter of the 95% duty cycle, the intent of that phrase is to mean the device is actually producing, generating, energy 95% of the time (example of non-acceptable approach, a device that produces only 20% of the time, but stores energy in batteries or other in an attempt to output some level of power 95% of the time, hope that is clear, if not, lemme know), or said differently, the device is actively producing electricity at 95% duty cycle without the aid of storage devices such as caps, batteries, fuel cells, etc. Caps used for smoothing out AC ripple, etc, are fine. Andrew, water is an acceptable consumable, included melting ice to make liquid water. Gotta run now, if I missed any other questions, lemme know. CM

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Dr. Shark, Tue Feb 13 2007, 04:23PM

Hazzmat, I have been thinking along similar lines as you have. Instead of geothermal power it was more along the lines of harvesting energy from the temerature differences of day and night though. 1m deep in the ground the temperature should be fairly constant, whereas the surface might on average heat up and cool down by 5K or so each day. That would be just enough to power a LTD (Low Thermal Differential) Stirling engine.

Geopower sounds a lot more feasible, but I am not sure how deep one has to dig in various places of the planet to reach a sufficient temperature. I imagine that drilling a 100m hole to harvest 1W of energy would be prohibitively expensive and complicated.

Just to clarify once more, as I get the challenge the goal is to produce a device that can continously generate power in some remote area, e.g. a beacon on the north pole or scientific apparatus on a sattellite. In the past, RTGs (scroll done for a lovely Russian specimen) have been used to a similar effect, but since they consume Plutonium, they are out.

The most obvious remaning possibilities are solar power, exploiting temperature gradients, and wind power.
Problem: None of these would fulfill the requirement of the 95% duty cycle, as all these depend on the sun in some way. And as we all now, the sun rotates around the earth, so it just does not have a 95% duty-cycle

In the interest of real-world applicability of the powersource I propose following change to the rules: The device has to generate an average power of at least 1W, and it is allowed to store power for up to 24h. To still rule out batteries and electrolytic capacitors, a minimum lifetime of 20 years or so could be required.

I think this would steer the community effort here into the direction of an alternative energy source with true real-world use.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
CM, Tue Feb 13 2007, 05:07PM

Joe:

The basis for the 4 criteria are founded in the fact that there already exists an alternative energy source that meets all 4 criteria (but it is exempt from the contest). Alex decided I shouldn't talk about it much more because I'm not willing to share 'more data', and I won't be until after the patent issues. She closed down a previous thread in an act of censorship. If this is her site, and/or she's obviously authorized to do so, I can't be held accountable for another's judgement to close down a active thread. My contest is intended to stimulate some of the obvious brilliant minds here on this board into a cohesive force to come up with something completely different than my ionic approach. Not so long ago, running a 4 minute mile was considered 'unreachable' by the intellectual status quo of physicians, that is until Roger Bannister ran a mile in under 4 mins. Once others learned it was possible, it was only 46 days later that someone else did even better! Moral of the story is, none of us should be afraid to try new ideas if you believe in them, even in light of the intellectuals saying it's not possible. While I am sitting around waiting for my 3rd patent to clear, I believe that others on this board, smarter and more creative than me, can come up with other approaches to the energy issue. Btw, Peter, no size limit, and efficiency of lifting the weight will be related to which fuel cell and motor your decide to use. It doesn't have to conform to anybody elses standards, so you can choose whatever fuel cell and motor that you want. CM

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Feb 13 2007, 10:27PM

Joe, you don't really have to drill all that deep. Volcanic Islands like Japan and Hawaii have a lot of potential, not to mention Greenland. Also let me point out that on a bulk landmass like North America, there is one of the world's largest Calderas sitting under our feet, its called Yellowstone National Park.

It's possible, they may have to come up with entirely new drilling schemes to go through volcanic rock because of its hardness, but I think its possible.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
TheMerovingian, Tue Feb 13 2007, 10:34PM

Using the salinity gradient of the sea (deeper water is more concentrated) to build a concentration battery. The problem is to find a suitable reaction

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Bjørn, Tue Feb 13 2007, 11:25PM

The contest started Feb 12, no changes to the rules after that. The judges will use the original set of rules. It is up to the judges to decide what is moral, legal, reality and fiction.

All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed.

Please think before you post, this thread is on the General Science and Electronics forum and all posts must be on 100% topic. Read the rules of the competition twice before you propose any ideas. When you propose it the idea belongs to the forum as dictated by the above license. If you wonder where the licence comes from it is at the bottom of every page of the forum and you agreed to it when you joined the forum.

The rules of the competition have been rigged with the purpose of generating a specific outcome. Unless you find a loophole you are not going to win the $5000.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
..., Wed Feb 14 2007, 12:14AM

Well, are we supposed to post about our loopholes? I have a few in mind...

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Bjørn, Wed Feb 14 2007, 12:40AM

As long as you have thought it through and are happy with someone else to run away with a possible $5000 then there is no reason why not.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
..., Wed Feb 14 2007, 04:14AM

Well, I would say that I have my doubts that I (or anyone else for that matter) will 'win' this thing, I am going to point out the biggest loophole I see... You don't say how much power it has to produce during that 95% of the time.. So I could use a put a solar cell on it that will produce power 24/7 (either from the sun, moon, or the stars if you really get desperate, but thet 10^-18w of power is still power), and then have something that produces power for a short period of time.

Also, you don't say anything about not using plants... They grow over the entire surface of the planet, are renewable, etc. You said that water can be consumed, so lets stick a farm out there and composte the plants, and then conver the methane into H2 (or just burn them and then use that energy to make H2).

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Bjørn, Wed Feb 14 2007, 05:17AM

It is a bit of a loophole but not a large one. It has to be a single source that is able to produce 66-300 joules of energy, every 24 hours in any conditions.

That means at -80 deg C, at +55 deg C, in one millionth of starlight, in full sunlight, in snow, in rain and in every other normal condition that exists during the year at some place on the earth or at sea.

Solar cells are out since there are not enough of them around to collect 100 joules a day from starlight through thick cloud cover in a blizzard. The farm might work but how do convincingly demonstrate that you can get it to work for 6 months in total darkness at -50 deg C? Then you have to show that it does not use "stored" energy.

To make it short there are some loopholes but they don't line up very well. Most methods that clearly are in line with the rules will cost far more than $5000 to demonstrate.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Dr. Shark, Wed Feb 14 2007, 11:26AM

Since we are all good fellows here, I will post what I think are the "loopholes". Some community mindstorming will not hurt anyone, and if it does, what are $5000 between friends?

There is a vast amount of information about there about how Franklin, Tesla and all these guys who could not just plug their appliances into the wall generated electricity from odd sources. There is not only atmospheric charge (which is out by the rules), but there ground electricity ("telluric currents" is your google phrase), low frequency modulations in the earths magnetic field, resonating RF in the atmosphere, and I am sure many other things which can be tapped 24/7 everywhere on the planet. Since the rules only require a miniscule amount of energy to be generated, all of these stand a chance of being used successfully.

Geothermal energy holds promise for much greater power, so I looked into that too. Unfortunately the thermal gradient of the earth is only 20K per kilometer - not a lot. Even if you could dig 100m deep, running a heat engine on a temperature difference of only 2K gives a theoretical maximum efficiency of 1-T(cold)/T(hot)= 1%, so you wold have to move a lot of heat through your bore. You would also need to invent a new kind of engine, since the best stirling engines today still require some 20K difference to overcome friction and start moving.

Another random idea: Exploiting differences in air pressure - this has potential to move a piston with quite some force given sufficient area

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Bjørn, Wed Feb 14 2007, 12:58PM

The rules indicate that the device must be built and run for 6 months. It does not say where, but "where you live" seems like a good spot. The device can't reasonably be tested everywhere so it must be enough to show logically that it will work everywhere. This means that geothermal power is realistic if someone lives in an area where the temperature gradient is extremely high.

Looking at the member map there is not a lot of people in such areas and some of the members seems to have misunderstood the basic principles of a map.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
CM, Wed Feb 14 2007, 02:07PM

The contest rules clearly state "In the event of clarification, interpretation or dispute of the written critera, the judges will deem the interpretation of this contest's financier (me) as final clarification." Judges and admins, please follow the contest rules. If that is not clear enough, then item 3 refers to "No-Man Made" in reference to the source of power. To S-P-E-L-L it out ...

I'll honor anything except slave labor. It's immoral and unethical to think that slave labor is a viable alternative energy source (good god, what are you thinking?) and goes against the spirit of the contest to find a viable alternative energy source. In fact, it's soooo low on the ethical scale, it did not seem necessary to mention to intelligent people... what's next to be suggested, harvesting human organs to burn as fuel in a steam engine? To be clear, I will honor anything other than manual labor (to spell it out for the loopholers, no human or animal power). That is fair and that is my final ruling as the financier of this contest. If you can't live with running a fair contest, cancel it. If cancelled, I hereby announce to all here that I continue the contest in a sain manner by accepting submission at my email **link**, or are you going to delete my email address too? How low can a select few of you sink? I'm not referring to you Nik. 99% of the people I've met here are great, just a few bad apples and a couple of them seem to be the one's with the delete button. Get on the technology wagon and forget the slave labor approach. I can be a useful financier and helper for people with viable technology and great ideas, I am very experienced in making many millions of dollars from good ideas and can likely help some of the talent here to do the same, or I can simply write the management of this site off as joke due to a couple bad apples... although that would be a shame since some really good folks log on here. CM

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Bjørn, Wed Feb 14 2007, 02:40PM

The contest is not cancelled, in that case the thread would be closed. The moderators agreed that there were no rules against it.

No edits have been logged on the moderator forum, any edits that may have taken place will be in the database and an admin will look that up. Any changes to the rules after February 12th is not acceptable no matter who made the changes. Changing the rules after the contest have started changes it from a contest to fraud.

If you have any problems with anyone there is a forum (Moderator / Admin Contact) for that purpose, if you don't want to discuss it in public there are both personal messages and e-mail addresses available. Random unspecified accusations against unnamed persons breaks at least two rules so don't do it again.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Jose, Wed Feb 14 2007, 02:58PM

Hola, they excuse my writing since I am using the translator of ya.com. Since I do not understand his(its) language. It(He,She) wanted to know if it(he,she) is free the competition of the proposed source of energy and where it is necessary to publish her(it), it is the same space of the forum or as information I attach someone of the jurors??. A Greeting.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Bjørn, Wed Feb 14 2007, 03:15PM

The contest rules clearly state "In the event of clarification, interpretation or dispute of the written critera, the judges will deem the interpretation of this contest's financier (me) as final clarification." Judges and admins, please follow the contest rules. Item 3 refers to "No-Man Made" in reference to the source of power. To S-P-E-L-L it out ...

If some of the text have logic faults or are not specific enough to decode with the use of common sense then you can clarify as much as you like as long as it is not in contradiction with the rules as written. That means you can't claim that you meant something else than you wrote since it is not possible to verify your claim.

It(He,She) wanted to know if it(he,she) is free the competition of the proposed source of energy and where it is necessary to publish her(it), it is the same space of the forum or as information I attach someone of the jurors??

If you want to take part in the contest you can post on the forum, but you should get a human to translate your text. If no one can understand you then it makes little sense to post.

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
CM, Wed Feb 14 2007, 03:18PM

Thanks for making my point...USE COMMON SENSE! Stop trying to evade the rules and the spirit of the contest. CM
-----
Joe:

I'd be extremely pleased to see someone win this contest with telluric currents. I would definitely be interested in that manner of clean renewable energy! My ion antenna utilizes a derivative of telluric current when the earth changes its potential compared to my HV collectors (or vise-versa). I've done a bit of unfinished research into earth currents and feel it is a wide open field for someone creative to figure out how to effectively tap the earth currents. Some have tried, including me but I got side tracked, I don't believe the correct 'harvesting' approach has been implimented yet. (I buried 60 feet of 4 inch copper pipe 20 feet underground as the "ground" for my ion antenna, and found some interesting effects that develop when you have that large of a ground pointed in the right direction. I did just enough research to believe there is decent potential for someone who is able to figure out the correct geometry/polarity/direction combination for the underground collectors. Solar flares and other environmental effects produce surprisingly large electrical currents in the ground, almost as if the earth was acting as a compatible receiving antenna for an external energy source resulting in electricity currents. Tesla rarely gets enough public credit for his amazing foresight and accomplishments, in my opinion. (Hint: Telluric currents is a good direction to look to). (2nd hint: the 'compass' direction and depth that you install your 'earth current antennas' matters) CM

P.S. It's easy to generate a 'false positive' when searching for telluric current using metals buried underground, as the impurities in the metals can form a cathode/anode relationship generating DC V/amps... including if your using the same type of metal everywhere in you're underground collection system... that would be the creation of an "earth battery"(assuming you've provided a suitable circuit for the power to propogate)... rather than harvesting Telluric current. I know, cause I got excited when I measured good V/amps, until I realized it was impurities (and/or mineral differences) in the metal that degrade with time. Different manufacturing runs of the same metal (even from the same manufacturer) can result in enough variation in the metals to create the battery effect. Just a lil something for anyone tinkering with earth currents to be aware of. CM

[mod edit] fixed double post

Re: $5000 CONTEST! and follow up investment! ***CANCELLED***
Chris Russell, Wed Feb 14 2007, 06:15PM

I'm sorry, but this is a forum, not a game show. There will be no $5,000 contest here. If you would still like to have one, please have it somewhere else. I will tolerate no further posts on this matter.

As has been pointed out above, the contest is clearly geared to generate a specific outcome. It is almost certainly not possible to win, given that CM can edit his post and change the fine print at will.

I should also point out the text at the bottom of this site, the terms and conditions that everyone specifically agreed to when registering:

All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed.

In other words, anything that is posted here by the person who owns the rights to that material is released under the above license: anyone can use it or create derivative works based on it, even commercially. All that is required is that they offer the work under the same license. Therefore, if you're looking to patent or copyright something and sell it for a lot of money, it shouldn't be posted here. This community is for the free exchange of information and ideas. Let's leave the business out of it.