IONS penetrate glass?
CM, Fri Jan 05 2007, 06:49PMGoggled this for over two hours, still looking for definitive answer, so once again I'm posting here where the smart people hangout. I realize that radiation penetrates through glass, example, radiation penetrates the glass detection tube in a geiger counter and ionizes the gas inside the tube. However, do IONS penetrate through glass? Thanks in advance. CM
Re: IONS penetrate glass?
Steve Ward, Fri Jan 05 2007, 07:01PM
If they are moving fast enough, i dont see why not. But, i think the ions that most of us generate have far too low energy to get through materials like that.
Check out the lichtenberg theory page (should have a link in the top left corner). He basically uses an accelerator to shoot electrons into the acrylic. Id imagine you could do this with any partical, but its probably far easier for electrons as they are smaller. Trying to do it with big ions is probably *much* harder. Most penetrating radiation is also small stuff (electrons, protons...) except for example alpha (He nucleus), which from what i remember has a hard time penetrating much of anything.
So for the practical experimenter, my guess is that its just about impossible for ions to pass through glass (unless you work with a LINAC for your day job).
Steve Ward, Fri Jan 05 2007, 07:01PM
If they are moving fast enough, i dont see why not. But, i think the ions that most of us generate have far too low energy to get through materials like that.
Check out the lichtenberg theory page (should have a link in the top left corner). He basically uses an accelerator to shoot electrons into the acrylic. Id imagine you could do this with any partical, but its probably far easier for electrons as they are smaller. Trying to do it with big ions is probably *much* harder. Most penetrating radiation is also small stuff (electrons, protons...) except for example alpha (He nucleus), which from what i remember has a hard time penetrating much of anything.
So for the practical experimenter, my guess is that its just about impossible for ions to pass through glass (unless you work with a LINAC for your day job).
Re: IONS penetrate glass?
Steve Conner, Sat Jan 06 2007, 11:53AM
Sort of. If you fired a beam of ions at glass, it most likely wouldn't go through. However, glass is made of ionic compounds. If you put a high DC voltage across a piece of glass for a long time, the ions can sort of leach around, almost like electrolysis in really slow motion. If you heat glass to red hot, the ions can move a lot easier and it actually starts to conduct quite well. You can pass enough current through a heated glass rod to light a 120V bulb from wall current.
Steve Conner, Sat Jan 06 2007, 11:53AM
Sort of. If you fired a beam of ions at glass, it most likely wouldn't go through. However, glass is made of ionic compounds. If you put a high DC voltage across a piece of glass for a long time, the ions can sort of leach around, almost like electrolysis in really slow motion. If you heat glass to red hot, the ions can move a lot easier and it actually starts to conduct quite well. You can pass enough current through a heated glass rod to light a 120V bulb from wall current.
Re: IONS penetrate glass?
Dr. Shark, Wed Jan 24 2007, 04:02PM
For practical purposes, I would also answer the question with a firm no. The smallest ions that come to my mind are alpha-rays, and common knowledge holds that these can be held up by something as thin as a piece of paper. Any ions that we crazy people create will be much larger (alpha particles are completey stripped of electrons) so they get stuck more easily, and they will also move a lot slower (most alphas have kinetic energies far in the Megavolts).
Dr. Shark, Wed Jan 24 2007, 04:02PM
For practical purposes, I would also answer the question with a firm no. The smallest ions that come to my mind are alpha-rays, and common knowledge holds that these can be held up by something as thin as a piece of paper. Any ions that we crazy people create will be much larger (alpha particles are completey stripped of electrons) so they get stuck more easily, and they will also move a lot slower (most alphas have kinetic energies far in the Megavolts).
Re: IONS penetrate glass?
Bored Chemist, Wed Jan 24 2007, 06:49PM
The glass window of a geiger is a pretty practical purpose if you ask me. OK alpha detectors generally use mica but the He ions will go through glass. This was how they were identified as He nuclei in the first place. OTOH you need very thin glass and very fast ions. Of course, there's always the philosophy that if MeV won't do it then try GeV but I don't think anyone here has a cyclotron.
Bored Chemist, Wed Jan 24 2007, 06:49PM
The glass window of a geiger is a pretty practical purpose if you ask me. OK alpha detectors generally use mica but the He ions will go through glass. This was how they were identified as He nuclei in the first place. OTOH you need very thin glass and very fast ions. Of course, there's always the philosophy that if MeV won't do it then try GeV but I don't think anyone here has a cyclotron.
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