Vaneless ion wind generator
tarakan2, Mon Jun 17 2019, 10:46AM
For a long time, I knew about ion engines, and "ion lifters" - demonstrations where high voltage (around 100KV ) is used to create air flow, sufficient enough to lift a simple device made out of aluminium foil and copper wire.
Recently I learned that there is a way to turn airflow into electricity without moving rotor blades.
In the system like this:
where does the wind apply its energy?
I attach an ionization sprayer on top of a non-conductive tower and spray water, while charging it with an electrical charge.
Can I get more energy out of this system then I put in, if the wind carries my charged water mist a certain distance away from the tower base?
I am looking at the math in the article. What are we doing the work against?
Earth surface behaves like a lattice of resistors. Is there an optimal distance from the ground post that my charged water needs to land to generate the most energy?
Eventually, I would like to design my own experiment.
However, I am not so sure how it all works yet.
How do I create a system where the wind is moving water mist against the electrical field?
Can the nozzle on top of the tower have the same charge as the earth around it?
Wouldn't this be required for the wind to work against the electrical forces?
What are the optimal voltages for this system?
I can connect the nozzle to a simple 3KV supply or I can build a multiple-stage voltage multiplier and apply 1 million volts to it. What would be better for this task?
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
tarakan2, Mon Jun 17 2019, 10:52AM
This is where I hosted image.
I had a difficulty illustrating my post.
tarakan2, Mon Jun 17 2019, 10:52AM
This is where I hosted image.
I had a difficulty illustrating my post.
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
Sulaiman, Mon Jun 17 2019, 12:15PM
The principle seems similar to a Van de Graaff generator ...
Electrical power has two components, voltage and current.
Electrical energy is charge (coulombs) x potential (vo9lts)
Current is rate of flow of charge,
the wind (or belt in a Van de Graaff generator) transports charge against an electric field -
doing work against an electric field,
moving charge from a low voltage relative to ground
to a high voltage relative to ground,
so the charge does not change but the potential does - increasing electrical energy available,
or, to look at it another way,
at 100% efficiency, the current is the same at the transmitter and the receiver,
(the receiver could be ground)
but the potential difference is increased,
so the electrical power is increased.
Sulaiman, Mon Jun 17 2019, 12:15PM
The principle seems similar to a Van de Graaff generator ...
Electrical power has two components, voltage and current.
Electrical energy is charge (coulombs) x potential (vo9lts)
Current is rate of flow of charge,
the wind (or belt in a Van de Graaff generator) transports charge against an electric field -
doing work against an electric field,
moving charge from a low voltage relative to ground
to a high voltage relative to ground,
so the charge does not change but the potential does - increasing electrical energy available,
or, to look at it another way,
at 100% efficiency, the current is the same at the transmitter and the receiver,
(the receiver could be ground)
but the potential difference is increased,
so the electrical power is increased.
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
tarakan2, Tue Jun 18 2019, 02:25AM
I get the theoretical idea.
However, in EWICON, the charged water particles are blown away by the wind from a mesh of steel pipes, and the ground receives them.
The diagram shows us that the load is placed into the ground circuit of the charging system.
What I don't understand is that if there is some kind of mist dispersing mesh at the top of the device and the wind carries the water particles away from this dispersing mesh, then the wind just helps decrease the charge in relationship to the ground, similar to a corona emission on high voltage power lines.
Also, similar charges repel, therefore the water already wants to separate from itself and the wind only helps it.
How does wind add energy into the system and carry the charge "upstream" ?
What is the maximum charge that the water mist can carry?
What is the optimum voltage for the power supply?
Should (+) be facing the ground or should the (-) be?
Is there a more detailed electronics circuit of a EWICON-like device?
I think that it would make a very interesting backyard science project.
However, there is so little information out there.
Looking for more replies.
Thank you.
tarakan2, Tue Jun 18 2019, 02:25AM
Sulaiman wrote ...
The principle seems similar to a Van de Graaff generator ...
Electrical power has two components, voltage and current.
Electrical energy is charge (coulombs) x potential (vo9lts)
Current is rate of flow of charge,
the wind (or belt in a Van de Graaff generator) transports charge against an electric field -
doing work against an electric field,
moving charge from a low voltage relative to ground
to a high voltage relative to ground,
so the charge does not change but the potential does - increasing electrical energy available,
or, to look at it another way,
at 100% efficiency, the current is the same at the transmitter and the receiver,
(the receiver could be ground)
but the potential difference is increased,
so the electrical power is increased.
The principle seems similar to a Van de Graaff generator ...
Electrical power has two components, voltage and current.
Electrical energy is charge (coulombs) x potential (vo9lts)
Current is rate of flow of charge,
the wind (or belt in a Van de Graaff generator) transports charge against an electric field -
doing work against an electric field,
moving charge from a low voltage relative to ground
to a high voltage relative to ground,
so the charge does not change but the potential does - increasing electrical energy available,
or, to look at it another way,
at 100% efficiency, the current is the same at the transmitter and the receiver,
(the receiver could be ground)
but the potential difference is increased,
so the electrical power is increased.
I get the theoretical idea.
However, in EWICON, the charged water particles are blown away by the wind from a mesh of steel pipes, and the ground receives them.
The diagram shows us that the load is placed into the ground circuit of the charging system.
What I don't understand is that if there is some kind of mist dispersing mesh at the top of the device and the wind carries the water particles away from this dispersing mesh, then the wind just helps decrease the charge in relationship to the ground, similar to a corona emission on high voltage power lines.
Also, similar charges repel, therefore the water already wants to separate from itself and the wind only helps it.
How does wind add energy into the system and carry the charge "upstream" ?
What is the maximum charge that the water mist can carry?
What is the optimum voltage for the power supply?
Should (+) be facing the ground or should the (-) be?
Is there a more detailed electronics circuit of a EWICON-like device?
I think that it would make a very interesting backyard science project.
However, there is so little information out there.
Looking for more replies.
Thank you.
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
Sulaiman, Tue Jun 18 2019, 11:20AM
One way t get a 'feel' for it;
Imagine the electrical power source / ioniser /charging system as a two-terminal device, equivalent to a very high voltage battery.
Look at the diagram for Alvin Marks' patent in the article that you pointed to.
If you understand how that works;
just move EARTH from the bottom of the charging system to the 'collector',
and you will get the EWICON configuration ... simples ...
Positive or negative ?
You can choose either to suit requirements,
but a high positive potential will cause the (positive ions of) metals to 'evaporate' ,
so slowly weaken the physical transmitter structure.
(and, ultimately, pollute the downwind area with the transmitter grid metal)
I beieve that negatively charged ions in the air make me 'feel better' than positive ions.
Lightning protection will be fun.
Sulaiman, Tue Jun 18 2019, 11:20AM
One way t get a 'feel' for it;
Imagine the electrical power source / ioniser /charging system as a two-terminal device, equivalent to a very high voltage battery.
Look at the diagram for Alvin Marks' patent in the article that you pointed to.
If you understand how that works;
just move EARTH from the bottom of the charging system to the 'collector',
and you will get the EWICON configuration ... simples ...
Positive or negative ?
You can choose either to suit requirements,
but a high positive potential will cause the (positive ions of) metals to 'evaporate' ,
so slowly weaken the physical transmitter structure.
(and, ultimately, pollute the downwind area with the transmitter grid metal)
I beieve that negatively charged ions in the air make me 'feel better' than positive ions.
Lightning protection will be fun.
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
tarakan2, Tue Jun 18 2019, 03:52PM
Lightning protection will not be a problem because I want to build and to test this project out in the fall when lightnings are rare in our area.
For the charge to be moved upstream, the Earth and the nozzle have to both have the same charge?
What do I do with the opposite charge?
What am I charging the system against if both the nozzle and the receiver have the same charge?
I need a circuit or at least a detailed diagram.
Otherwise, I am straying negative ionic mist onto a positive Earth and this is just a waste of energy.
Electrostatic painters work this way and the whole point is to spend electricity and to save paint and solvents.
If the nozzle is charged, the water already wants to repel from the water of the same charge.
Another problem that I see in this system is how to convert the high voltage DC into low voltage DC or 110VAC or some other useful voltage/current.
For that I may use a circuit where capacitors are charged in series and discharged in parallel, or sequentially.
I am looking for examples of such circuits.
There were devices with rotating disks that converted static electricity to useful energy.
Maybe this is not the most modern solution and this may be the most accessible one to me.
In the Van De Graaf generator, the materials of the belt and of the rollers determine whither the sphere on the top accumulates positive or negative charge.
The Earth always accumulates the opposite charge.
How can this system be built with Earth as the receiver?
tarakan2, Tue Jun 18 2019, 03:52PM
Lightning protection will not be a problem because I want to build and to test this project out in the fall when lightnings are rare in our area.
For the charge to be moved upstream, the Earth and the nozzle have to both have the same charge?
What do I do with the opposite charge?
What am I charging the system against if both the nozzle and the receiver have the same charge?
I need a circuit or at least a detailed diagram.
Otherwise, I am straying negative ionic mist onto a positive Earth and this is just a waste of energy.
Electrostatic painters work this way and the whole point is to spend electricity and to save paint and solvents.
If the nozzle is charged, the water already wants to repel from the water of the same charge.
Another problem that I see in this system is how to convert the high voltage DC into low voltage DC or 110VAC or some other useful voltage/current.
For that I may use a circuit where capacitors are charged in series and discharged in parallel, or sequentially.
I am looking for examples of such circuits.
There were devices with rotating disks that converted static electricity to useful energy.
Maybe this is not the most modern solution and this may be the most accessible one to me.
In the Van De Graaf generator, the materials of the belt and of the rollers determine whither the sphere on the top accumulates positive or negative charge.
The Earth always accumulates the opposite charge.
How can this system be built with Earth as the receiver?
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
tarakan2, Wed Jun 19 2019, 05:43PM
I do understand how Alvin Marks patent works.
tarakan2, Wed Jun 19 2019, 05:43PM
I do understand how Alvin Marks patent works.
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
tarakan2, Mon Jul 01 2019, 12:00PM
Is this picture accurate ?
I am trying to find a working circuit or some more documentation. I am trying to build one.
Thank you.
tarakan2, Mon Jul 01 2019, 12:00PM
Is this picture accurate ?
I am trying to find a working circuit or some more documentation. I am trying to build one.
Thank you.
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
HiVi, Thu Mar 05 2020, 05:18PM
Interesting topic.
Had any luck building it?
Edit 1:
I agree that the main problem here is converting high voltages down to useful ones.
One simple solution is flyback transformer with spark gap switching, but is of low efficiency since it completely discharges accumulated charge + spark gap loss.
Others seems to include specialized solid state switches as in HVDC converters.
Regarding water mists and similar charge carriers, i think it is better to just the ionizer approach, attach those electrones to air molecules and let the wind carry them away...
If you use water droplets, you will just waste extra energy for pumping and add extra losses in system.
HiVi, Thu Mar 05 2020, 05:18PM
Interesting topic.
Had any luck building it?
Edit 1:
I agree that the main problem here is converting high voltages down to useful ones.
One simple solution is flyback transformer with spark gap switching, but is of low efficiency since it completely discharges accumulated charge + spark gap loss.
Others seems to include specialized solid state switches as in HVDC converters.
Regarding water mists and similar charge carriers, i think it is better to just the ionizer approach, attach those electrones to air molecules and let the wind carry them away...
If you use water droplets, you will just waste extra energy for pumping and add extra losses in system.
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
Russ Edmonds, Sun Mar 08 2020, 03:43PM
One advantage of using water droplets over air ions is that a much lower drive voltage can be used. The charge separation mechanism for water droplets is induction verses ionization breakdown for air ions.
Russ Edmonds, Sun Mar 08 2020, 03:43PM
One advantage of using water droplets over air ions is that a much lower drive voltage can be used. The charge separation mechanism for water droplets is induction verses ionization breakdown for air ions.
Re: Vaneless ion wind generator
tarakan2, Tue Mar 10 2020, 12:35AM
Thank you for explaining.
Now I understand how this technology works.
tarakan2, Tue Mar 10 2020, 12:35AM
Thank you for explaining.
Now I understand how this technology works.
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