The problem with dangerous chemicals
Conundrum, Mon Apr 24 2017, 07:16PMHi all.
Given recent events, the issue has been raised of dangerous chemicals (eg sulphuric acid, drain cleaner, lye etc) being available to the general public without restriction.
Should we consider a blanket ban on purchasing these, for anyone who cannot prove that their intended application is safe, and/or anyone who cannot demonstrate via relevant qualification the knowledge to handle them safely
For that matter, should lead acid batteries of the flooded type be modified to prevent recovery of the acid (eg glass beads etc) and the older variety removed from sale as these are often how potential criminals get hold of acid for other mischief such as bio-diesel production and illegal fuel laundering in the first place.
I for one would hate to see chemistry hobbyists punished further, but when the outcome of even a minor exposure can have lifelong effects should we err on the side of caution?
Discuss.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
2Spoons, Mon Apr 24 2017, 10:40PM
If someone has a desire to hurt other people, they will find a way - no matter how hard you try to take away all the "dangerous" things. Look at the recent attacks using vehicles as weapons. Are you going to ban kitchen knives next, except for trained chefs?
I think the only place bans and controls should be exercised is for things that are actually intended as weapons - eg guns, and explosives.
2Spoons, Mon Apr 24 2017, 10:40PM
If someone has a desire to hurt other people, they will find a way - no matter how hard you try to take away all the "dangerous" things. Look at the recent attacks using vehicles as weapons. Are you going to ban kitchen knives next, except for trained chefs?
I think the only place bans and controls should be exercised is for things that are actually intended as weapons - eg guns, and explosives.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Sulaiman, Tue Apr 25 2017, 12:33AM
I can't imagine criminals having to use battery acid in UK,
96% sulphuric acid has been very easy to buy ... until recently.
My local hardware shops no longer stock it,
even eBay stopped for a while, back on sale now,
Amazon.uk has had sulfuric acid continuously available.
With sulphuric acid I can synthesise most other acids,
so the loss of this resource would be significant to me as a hobby chemist.
Sulfuric acid is one of the largest-volume industrial chemicals produced in the world.
so absolute control would be difficult.
OTOH sulphuric acid is easily used as a very nasty weapon,
but so are laundry bleaches and bricks.
Rather than banning stuff, proper education and if that fails, punishment, is better.
e.g. if folk know that gbh via acid is 10 years minimum, there will be very few acid attacks.
Sulaiman, Tue Apr 25 2017, 12:33AM
I can't imagine criminals having to use battery acid in UK,
96% sulphuric acid has been very easy to buy ... until recently.
My local hardware shops no longer stock it,
even eBay stopped for a while, back on sale now,
Amazon.uk has had sulfuric acid continuously available.
With sulphuric acid I can synthesise most other acids,
so the loss of this resource would be significant to me as a hobby chemist.
Sulfuric acid is one of the largest-volume industrial chemicals produced in the world.
so absolute control would be difficult.
OTOH sulphuric acid is easily used as a very nasty weapon,
but so are laundry bleaches and bricks.
Rather than banning stuff, proper education and if that fails, punishment, is better.
e.g. if folk know that gbh via acid is 10 years minimum, there will be very few acid attacks.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Apr 25 2017, 01:17AM
BOLLOCKS!
I spent a lot of time thinking of legitimate reasons for chemicals when I needed them.
Drain cleaner (which is really line cleaner) For the line! its that obvious!
Lye.. you have some hard to remove grease stains on your concrete... just as easy an excuse.
Bucket of pool bleach tablets.. so you own a pool... and you're not secretly making perchlorates.
It's that easy.
And if you want to get the good stuff, all you need to do is file for a business license, and you can buy anything, at least that's the way it is here in the states.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Apr 25 2017, 01:17AM
BOLLOCKS!
I spent a lot of time thinking of legitimate reasons for chemicals when I needed them.
Drain cleaner (which is really line cleaner) For the line! its that obvious!
Lye.. you have some hard to remove grease stains on your concrete... just as easy an excuse.
Bucket of pool bleach tablets.. so you own a pool... and you're not secretly making perchlorates.
It's that easy.
And if you want to get the good stuff, all you need to do is file for a business license, and you can buy anything, at least that's the way it is here in the states.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Sulaiman, Tue Apr 25 2017, 04:05AM
a quick google earth view will show that I use pool tablets for other purposes ;)
Sulaiman, Tue Apr 25 2017, 04:05AM
a quick google earth view will show that I use pool tablets for other purposes ;)
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Carbon_Rod, Tue Apr 25 2017, 05:18AM
We use quite a bit of sodium hydroxide as metal cleaner, and Xylene in manufacturing.
If your buy over 1 kg, than your driver license is recorded at the shop... so police can theoretically identify individuals amassing large quantities. Almost no retailers will carry laboratory grade chemicals anymore, as most industrial processes have simply been moved to developing countries.
H2O in pools harms more people every year than fools attempting to create elicit substances. However, the consumer culture combined with a well known psychological phenomena... makes the idea of controlling that which people don't understand desirable.
The fact that successful civilizations are a group of individuals that choose to forgo unenlightened self-interest escapes sociopaths. Unfortunately, chemistry as a hobby is now considered taboo by those that see no immediate benefit from an unpackaged product with no predefined context of usage:
Sociologically speaking, science has traditionally been marginalized given it exposes the hypocrisy of those that violate the very core of what defines commonsense. We are living in an age where modern witch-hunts help marginalized people feel safer, but idealized ignorance ultimately ensures a caste separation of indentured consumers and wealthy meritocrats.
Carbon_Rod, Tue Apr 25 2017, 05:18AM
We use quite a bit of sodium hydroxide as metal cleaner, and Xylene in manufacturing.
If your buy over 1 kg, than your driver license is recorded at the shop... so police can theoretically identify individuals amassing large quantities. Almost no retailers will carry laboratory grade chemicals anymore, as most industrial processes have simply been moved to developing countries.
H2O in pools harms more people every year than fools attempting to create elicit substances. However, the consumer culture combined with a well known psychological phenomena... makes the idea of controlling that which people don't understand desirable.
The fact that successful civilizations are a group of individuals that choose to forgo unenlightened self-interest escapes sociopaths. Unfortunately, chemistry as a hobby is now considered taboo by those that see no immediate benefit from an unpackaged product with no predefined context of usage:
Sociologically speaking, science has traditionally been marginalized given it exposes the hypocrisy of those that violate the very core of what defines commonsense. We are living in an age where modern witch-hunts help marginalized people feel safer, but idealized ignorance ultimately ensures a caste separation of indentured consumers and wealthy meritocrats.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Conundrum, Tue Apr 25 2017, 06:43AM
Perhaps a token gesture, to require an up to date passport before handing over anything dangerous. Also proof of at least basic chemical safety (hint: if you are buying lye and do not have proper safety goggles and gloves, you probably don't)
Minor change but it would help discourage idiots and keep everyone that bit safer.
Conundrum, Tue Apr 25 2017, 06:43AM
Perhaps a token gesture, to require an up to date passport before handing over anything dangerous. Also proof of at least basic chemical safety (hint: if you are buying lye and do not have proper safety goggles and gloves, you probably don't)
Minor change but it would help discourage idiots and keep everyone that bit safer.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
dexter, Tue Apr 25 2017, 08:47AM
safety instructions on the package are more than enough so no need for a nanny state
dexter, Tue Apr 25 2017, 08:47AM
Conundrum wrote ...
Perhaps a token gesture, to require an up to date passport before handing over anything dangerous. Also proof of at least basic chemical safety (hint: if you are buying lye and do not have proper safety goggles and gloves, you probably don't)
Minor change but it would help discourage idiots and keep everyone that bit safer.
Perhaps a token gesture, to require an up to date passport before handing over anything dangerous. Also proof of at least basic chemical safety (hint: if you are buying lye and do not have proper safety goggles and gloves, you probably don't)
Minor change but it would help discourage idiots and keep everyone that bit safer.
safety instructions on the package are more than enough so no need for a nanny state
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Dr. Slack, Tue Apr 25 2017, 09:07AM
You'd think so, wouldn't you? I had some 99% sulphuric, and a colleague at work wanted a little to play with (amateur chemist, experienced electronic engineer, degree, knew how many beans made 5). So I took it into work and decanted some into a dry bottle he'd brought in.
He turned up the next day looking very sheepish, showed me the charred and holed bottle, and explained how he'd fortunately avoided personal injury or significant property damage. 99% sulphuric rots slowly through PET, slow enough that we didn't notice it on decanting.
It says 'keep in original container' on the container, which was polythene. Two people who should know better didn't think hard enough about the different susceptibility of different plastics.
Dr. Slack, Tue Apr 25 2017, 09:07AM
dexter wrote ...
safety instructions on the package are more than enough so no need for a nanny state
safety instructions on the package are more than enough so no need for a nanny state
You'd think so, wouldn't you? I had some 99% sulphuric, and a colleague at work wanted a little to play with (amateur chemist, experienced electronic engineer, degree, knew how many beans made 5). So I took it into work and decanted some into a dry bottle he'd brought in.
He turned up the next day looking very sheepish, showed me the charred and holed bottle, and explained how he'd fortunately avoided personal injury or significant property damage. 99% sulphuric rots slowly through PET, slow enough that we didn't notice it on decanting.
It says 'keep in original container' on the container, which was polythene. Two people who should know better didn't think hard enough about the different susceptibility of different plastics.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Conundrum, Tue Apr 25 2017, 07:34PM
<soapbox>
I point out that the folks attacked recently, two lost eyes and the others have serious scarring.
No amount of reconstructive surgery can repair this, in India its a real problem that unfortunately is complicated by
artisanal gold mining often from illegally imported e-waste from Europe and elsewhere sent over in bulk in total defiance
of the Basel convention with the residual heavy metals ending up in rivers and slowly poisoning folks.
Apparently the damage is serious enough that the ruined eye(s) had to be removed completely to prevent the
unaffected eyes also losing sight due to some sort of immune reaction,
Please consider that sending your recovered gold off to a professional company for processing and/or PCB manufacturing
is a lot safer than trying to save a few $$$ and ending up with a Superfund site.
</soapbox>
Conundrum, Tue Apr 25 2017, 07:34PM
<soapbox>
I point out that the folks attacked recently, two lost eyes and the others have serious scarring.
No amount of reconstructive surgery can repair this, in India its a real problem that unfortunately is complicated by
artisanal gold mining often from illegally imported e-waste from Europe and elsewhere sent over in bulk in total defiance
of the Basel convention with the residual heavy metals ending up in rivers and slowly poisoning folks.
Apparently the damage is serious enough that the ruined eye(s) had to be removed completely to prevent the
unaffected eyes also losing sight due to some sort of immune reaction,
Please consider that sending your recovered gold off to a professional company for processing and/or PCB manufacturing
is a lot safer than trying to save a few $$$ and ending up with a Superfund site.
</soapbox>
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Carbon_Rod, Tue Apr 25 2017, 09:17PM
If you ever visit India, than you will understand why those with talent leave. The absurd consequences of centuries of caste systems have warped tribalism to unknown lows. People wash their hands in cow urine because it's cleaner than the water, cut off children's limbs to improve tourist begging revenue, and disfigure women with acid for fiscal or social motives.
The place does have a few developed regions with modern cultural standards, but the other 90% are living in their own filth as proven by the red zoned infectious diseases world map.
Pollution and worker safety doesn't enter consideration if your very survival is at stake.
The place is mostly primitive, dangerous at times, and disgusting to endure.
=(
Carbon_Rod, Tue Apr 25 2017, 09:17PM
Conundrum wrote ...
No amount of reconstructive surgery can repair this, in India its a real problem that unfortunately is complicated by
artisanal gold mining often from illegally imported e-waste from Europe and elsewhere sent over in bulk in total defiance
of the Basel convention with the residual heavy metals ending up in rivers and slowly poisoning folks.
No amount of reconstructive surgery can repair this, in India its a real problem that unfortunately is complicated by
artisanal gold mining often from illegally imported e-waste from Europe and elsewhere sent over in bulk in total defiance
of the Basel convention with the residual heavy metals ending up in rivers and slowly poisoning folks.
If you ever visit India, than you will understand why those with talent leave. The absurd consequences of centuries of caste systems have warped tribalism to unknown lows. People wash their hands in cow urine because it's cleaner than the water, cut off children's limbs to improve tourist begging revenue, and disfigure women with acid for fiscal or social motives.
The place does have a few developed regions with modern cultural standards, but the other 90% are living in their own filth as proven by the red zoned infectious diseases world map.
Pollution and worker safety doesn't enter consideration if your very survival is at stake.
The place is mostly primitive, dangerous at times, and disgusting to endure.
=(
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed Apr 26 2017, 03:25AM
Creating a Nanny state is just throwing the baby out with the bath water, it hurts everyone.
Really all you are doing is protecting the stupid and gullible, and allowing them to breed, is that a world you want to live in?
Do you want to have to show your driver's license to buy table salt?
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed Apr 26 2017, 03:25AM
Creating a Nanny state is just throwing the baby out with the bath water, it hurts everyone.
Really all you are doing is protecting the stupid and gullible, and allowing them to breed, is that a world you want to live in?
Do you want to have to show your driver's license to buy table salt?
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
dexter, Wed Apr 26 2017, 07:07AM
well in the rest of the world (or at least in EU/US) it's not a problem... so
why a problem that is exclusive to India should be used to push legislation in european countries?
dexter, Wed Apr 26 2017, 07:07AM
Conundrum wrote ...
in India its a real problem...
in India its a real problem...
well in the rest of the world (or at least in EU/US) it's not a problem... so
why a problem that is exclusive to India should be used to push legislation in european countries?
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
the_anomaly, Thu Apr 27 2017, 02:15AM
By introducing rules and regulations I think you will stifle innovation from garage inventors but you might also protect some of the general public.
Many chemicals a hobbyist might be interested in are 'dangerous' but when you compare them to some household chemicals they are about on par. ie. you would not drink bleach so treat copper sulfate the same.
I think steep punishment works to deter when the perpetrator knows of it. IMO many crimes are committed without thought of the consequences.
the_anomaly, Thu Apr 27 2017, 02:15AM
By introducing rules and regulations I think you will stifle innovation from garage inventors but you might also protect some of the general public.
Many chemicals a hobbyist might be interested in are 'dangerous' but when you compare them to some household chemicals they are about on par. ie. you would not drink bleach so treat copper sulfate the same.
I think steep punishment works to deter when the perpetrator knows of it. IMO many crimes are committed without thought of the consequences.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Conundrum, Thu Apr 27 2017, 06:59AM
There is a difference between educating people (a good example: providing MSDS sheets *EVERY TIME* they make a purchase) and/or at least having some monitoring. So if some idiot goes and buys high concentration H2SO4 they have to hand over their passport and if requested explain what they are doing with it, ideally demonstrating at least some level of knowledge.
I recall the same argument being made for restricting Li primary batteries and Sudafed, for similar reasons.
Guess what happened, the gangs making meth simply change their processes to get around restrictions: in some cities you can't even buy Lemsip now without ID and packet sizes are limited to also reduce the incidence of paracetamol poisoning.
I did hear that the latest method being used is to harvest Li from discarded LiPo model pouch cells, by charging up several times in a domestic freezer to 4.35V then mix it with Mg to reduce the chance of accidental ignition.
As an aside this technique is easily detected as leaking electrolyte typically shows up on a mass spectrometer to prove someone has been handling large quantities of cells.
Interesting factoid: recycling useful metals from discarded 18650s is also feasible and freezing the cell(s) before harvesting is a good way to make sure any unwanted reaction is controlled.
This is actually extensively used in industry and some new Energizers are made from recycled materials.
Conundrum, Thu Apr 27 2017, 06:59AM
There is a difference between educating people (a good example: providing MSDS sheets *EVERY TIME* they make a purchase) and/or at least having some monitoring. So if some idiot goes and buys high concentration H2SO4 they have to hand over their passport and if requested explain what they are doing with it, ideally demonstrating at least some level of knowledge.
I recall the same argument being made for restricting Li primary batteries and Sudafed, for similar reasons.
Guess what happened, the gangs making meth simply change their processes to get around restrictions: in some cities you can't even buy Lemsip now without ID and packet sizes are limited to also reduce the incidence of paracetamol poisoning.
I did hear that the latest method being used is to harvest Li from discarded LiPo model pouch cells, by charging up several times in a domestic freezer to 4.35V then mix it with Mg to reduce the chance of accidental ignition.
As an aside this technique is easily detected as leaking electrolyte typically shows up on a mass spectrometer to prove someone has been handling large quantities of cells.
Interesting factoid: recycling useful metals from discarded 18650s is also feasible and freezing the cell(s) before harvesting is a good way to make sure any unwanted reaction is controlled.
This is actually extensively used in industry and some new Energizers are made from recycled materials.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Fri Apr 28 2017, 01:26AM
And how do you propose to train the interrogator?
These are just regular folks working for $11/hr. trying to get by, they don't know the hazards, that's why they are working at Home Depot.
Look, I worked at Home Depot during a remodel in 2006. A forklift driver knocked over 16 cases of 32% HCL ( 32 gallons! ) in the garden area (pool acid by the way) during our inspection by the district manager.
The next thing you see is his dumb ass in the middle of the spill pool dumping the bicarbonate spill pack on the mess wearing a 2 filter respirator.
The dumb shit nearly asphyxiated himself on the chlorine, I'm sure his eyes were killing him that night.
All the while I was yelling at him to get the Lye drain cleaner, and the caustic based drain cleaner liquid concentrate.
No you can't educate the masses, they are just mindless consumers, so forget it. This kind of crusading is a waste of time, unless you're really the type that thinks their kids need to be bubble-wrapped before going outside.
The world needs to toughen-up a bit right now, that's why Berkeley is in such a mess.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Fri Apr 28 2017, 01:26AM
And how do you propose to train the interrogator?
These are just regular folks working for $11/hr. trying to get by, they don't know the hazards, that's why they are working at Home Depot.
Look, I worked at Home Depot during a remodel in 2006. A forklift driver knocked over 16 cases of 32% HCL ( 32 gallons! ) in the garden area (pool acid by the way) during our inspection by the district manager.
The next thing you see is his dumb ass in the middle of the spill pool dumping the bicarbonate spill pack on the mess wearing a 2 filter respirator.
The dumb shit nearly asphyxiated himself on the chlorine, I'm sure his eyes were killing him that night.
All the while I was yelling at him to get the Lye drain cleaner, and the caustic based drain cleaner liquid concentrate.
No you can't educate the masses, they are just mindless consumers, so forget it. This kind of crusading is a waste of time, unless you're really the type that thinks their kids need to be bubble-wrapped before going outside.
The world needs to toughen-up a bit right now, that's why Berkeley is in such a mess.
Re: The problem with dangerous chemicals
Conundrum, Fri Aug 11 2017, 05:28AM
Its hard enough to get components now.
There were discussions about banning Arduinos (!) but fortunately the people in charge saw sense.
(re. reused consumer parts being found in the Mideast or something like that)
Conundrum, Fri Aug 11 2017, 05:28AM
Its hard enough to get components now.
There were discussions about banning Arduinos (!) but fortunately the people in charge saw sense.
(re. reused consumer parts being found in the Mideast or something like that)
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