CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
tarakan2, Mon Aug 29 2016, 07:22PMOn the datesheet of CD4046 there are graphs on page 4 and 5.
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/26873/TI/CD4046.html
Those graphs show what center frequency, minimal frequency and maximum frequency can be obtained with different values of C1, R1, R2.
I am building this circuit.
And with the tables on the datasheet for CD4046 I am getting center frequency of a little bit less than 6MHz.
In the original circuit, R1= 12K, R2 = 16K , C1= 330pF = 0.00033uF . This corresponds to 10^6 Hz on the graphs provided. Tesla coils as big as mine cannot work at such high frequency.
I have a Tesla coil secondary that is a little different than the one that the author used for his circuit. I would like to use this Secondary.
For this reason I would like to play around with the values of the R1 , R2 and C1 to make sure that this circuit produces the resonant frequency of my secondary.
The resonant frequency of my secondary:
490 turns of 0.32mm wire on a 4inch PVC pipe.
The resonant frequency is about 852 KHz but my calculations may be wrong.
How big does the current in the primary circuit need to be? How thick should the wires be in the primary side of this circuit?
Would attaching a thick primary coil, made out of a telephone cable with all strands tied together in parallel make sense if I am using 0.68uF capacitors with leads that are only 0.6mm in diameter?
Should I redesign my circuit to use banks of smaller capacitors instead, to make the total diameter of the leads greater?
Thank you!
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
Antonio, Tue Aug 30 2016, 11:53PM
I see something as 200 kHz, or 2 x 10^5 Hz.
Antonio, Tue Aug 30 2016, 11:53PM
I see something as 200 kHz, or 2 x 10^5 Hz.
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
tarakan2, Fri Sept 02 2016, 05:53AM
Capacitor is 3.3 * 10^(-4)
R1,R2 are in the range of 10KOhm.
I get MHz range according to the table.
tarakan2, Fri Sept 02 2016, 05:53AM
Antonio wrote ...
I see something as 200 kHz, or 2 x 10^5 Hz.
I see something as 200 kHz, or 2 x 10^5 Hz.
Capacitor is 3.3 * 10^(-4)
R1,R2 are in the range of 10KOhm.
I get MHz range according to the table.
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
Uspring, Fri Sept 02 2016, 10:07AM
I agree with Antonio. The link you provided doesn't seem to work for me. I used
Uspring, Fri Sept 02 2016, 10:07AM
I agree with Antonio. The link you provided doesn't seem to work for me. I used
How big does the current in the primary circuit need to be? How thick should the wires be in the primary side of this circuit?Max primary current depends the choice of primary inductance. You don't want to exceed the capabilities of the FETs.
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
tarakan2, Fri Sept 02 2016, 09:16PM
I can replace TI CD4046BE with a HEF4046B by NXP?
They are not exaclty the same thing.
I have the TI but I may buy HEF4046B so it matches a more modern datasheet and your experience.
I need to obtain some frequency that matches my Tesla Coil secondary that I bought:
The resonant frequency of my secondary:
490 turns of 0.32mm wire on a 4inch PVC pipe.
How do I design the primary? Does it need to be thick? (Conductors on the circuit board that lead to the primary are not very thick. Capacitor leads are less than 1mm)
Thank you.
tarakan2, Fri Sept 02 2016, 09:16PM
I can replace TI CD4046BE with a HEF4046B by NXP?
They are not exaclty the same thing.
I have the TI but I may buy HEF4046B so it matches a more modern datasheet and your experience.
I need to obtain some frequency that matches my Tesla Coil secondary that I bought:
The resonant frequency of my secondary:
490 turns of 0.32mm wire on a 4inch PVC pipe.
How do I design the primary? Does it need to be thick? (Conductors on the circuit board that lead to the primary are not very thick. Capacitor leads are less than 1mm)
Thank you.
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
Uspring, Mon Sept 05 2016, 09:47AM
I believe you can also use the TI chip. They seem to be similar in terms of the frequency diagrams.
Steve Conners web pages seem to be under construction. I'd use the same primary inductance he did (which I don't know), scaled by the frequency. If you, e.g., want to use the double frequency that he used, then you should halve the inductance.
I dont think. 1mm leads of the caps matter much if you keep them short. Your primary copper wires should be at least 4 or 5 mm in diameter. Use JavaTC to calculate secondary res frequency or better measure it. For the design of the primary also use JavaTC. It will also tell you the effective copper resistance of the primary in cluding skinn effects. From there, with the max current of the primary, you can get an estimate of the power dissipation in it, which will help you to choose a thickness.
Uspring, Mon Sept 05 2016, 09:47AM
I believe you can also use the TI chip. They seem to be similar in terms of the frequency diagrams.
Steve Conners web pages seem to be under construction. I'd use the same primary inductance he did (which I don't know), scaled by the frequency. If you, e.g., want to use the double frequency that he used, then you should halve the inductance.
I dont think. 1mm leads of the caps matter much if you keep them short. Your primary copper wires should be at least 4 or 5 mm in diameter. Use JavaTC to calculate secondary res frequency or better measure it. For the design of the primary also use JavaTC. It will also tell you the effective copper resistance of the primary in cluding skinn effects. From there, with the max current of the primary, you can get an estimate of the power dissipation in it, which will help you to choose a thickness.
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
tarakan2, Wed Sept 07 2016, 01:07AM
Thank you.
I believe that all the Tesla magic that puzzles historians of science was in his (now obsolete) PLL circuitry. He built powerful systems that were capable of changing their frequency to tune into other sources of frequency.
I want to build PLL Tesla Coil circuits to test some of the greatest myths surrounding Tesla physics, in scale.
My CD4046 is different from the one you referred me to. My IC uses DIFFERENT C1, R1, R2 to achieve a desired frequency. I thought of buying a different IC but decided against it.
tarakan2, Wed Sept 07 2016, 01:07AM
Thank you.
I believe that all the Tesla magic that puzzles historians of science was in his (now obsolete) PLL circuitry. He built powerful systems that were capable of changing their frequency to tune into other sources of frequency.
I want to build PLL Tesla Coil circuits to test some of the greatest myths surrounding Tesla physics, in scale.
My CD4046 is different from the one you referred me to. My IC uses DIFFERENT C1, R1, R2 to achieve a desired frequency. I thought of buying a different IC but decided against it.
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
tarakan2, Fri Sept 16 2016, 02:49AM
Working on the circuit with the existing IC that is a TI version of CD4046. I want to replace 12K and 16K resistors with 100K potentiates connected in series with 5K resistors for safety.
I would also like to use a variable capacitor. instead of 330pF.
Do I need to make the primary work in resonance with the secondary? Which part is easier to make adjustable? Do I need to make a primary coil so I can change the amount of engaged coils on it?
Should I use the same capacitors - 2 X 0.68 uF ?
Thank you.
tarakan2, Fri Sept 16 2016, 02:49AM
Working on the circuit with the existing IC that is a TI version of CD4046. I want to replace 12K and 16K resistors with 100K potentiates connected in series with 5K resistors for safety.
I would also like to use a variable capacitor. instead of 330pF.
Do I need to make the primary work in resonance with the secondary? Which part is easier to make adjustable? Do I need to make a primary coil so I can change the amount of engaged coils on it?
Should I use the same capacitors - 2 X 0.68 uF ?
Thank you.
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
Uspring, Tue Sept 20 2016, 10:39AM
Uspring, Tue Sept 20 2016, 10:39AM
Do I need to make the primary work in resonance with the secondary?No, the primary isn't a resonant tank in a SSTC.
Which part is easier to make adjustable? Do I need to make a primary coil so I can change the amount of engaged coils on it?An adjustable primary would be nice, so you can adjust the load to the bridge.
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
tarakan2, Mon Oct 03 2016, 03:28AM
I bought the secondary and I may wind several identical secondaries for an experiment.
Making a primary is more difficult for me.
I assume that one 0.68 uF has opposing charges on its sides, while the other is always shorted by a closed MOSFET when this circuit is in operation.
I need to measure or calculate the LC of the primary using this data. Would a multi-strand telephone cable make a good primary? I want to tie all the strands together at the ends and use it.
I need the generator to work in the range of frequencies that the primary LC falls in and the secondary as well?
Secondary coil will always drift around. This is the whole point of PLL as I understand.
Double pendulum -- Is Tesla Coil an electric analog of this mechanical system?
tarakan2, Mon Oct 03 2016, 03:28AM
I bought the secondary and I may wind several identical secondaries for an experiment.
Making a primary is more difficult for me.
I assume that one 0.68 uF has opposing charges on its sides, while the other is always shorted by a closed MOSFET when this circuit is in operation.
I need to measure or calculate the LC of the primary using this data. Would a multi-strand telephone cable make a good primary? I want to tie all the strands together at the ends and use it.
I need the generator to work in the range of frequencies that the primary LC falls in and the secondary as well?
Secondary coil will always drift around. This is the whole point of PLL as I understand.
Double pendulum -- Is Tesla Coil an electric analog of this mechanical system?
Re: CD4046 datasheet, R1 and R2 and C1 that determine frequency range of this IC.
tarakan2, Mon Oct 24 2016, 02:18AM
I built the circuit.
I wound my first primary 0f about 1.6 turns. This was a calculated number based of the frequency I am working with (270KHz or about so) and 0.68uF capacitors.
The primary didn't work so well so I wound a second one with 4 turns, no longer spaced out the coils as I did before. This one worked better. I dont know why, but apparently resonance is not that important here.
I used a telephone cable with individual wires tied together on the ends.
I connected the power side of this circuit in SERIES with a 60Watt light bulb to make sure it wont draw too much current.
I used variable resistors for Resistors that connect to pins 11 and 12 on the CD4046.
I gave myself an ability to plug different capacitors between the pins 6 and 7 of the PLL IC.
Values that were used were
R1 - 12.05K - found empirically with a 100K pot
R2 - 13.70K - found empirically with a 100K pot
maybe I measured wrong because R2 always appeared to be bigger than R1
C1 was 150pF
There was a sweet spot when the streamer produced was as high as 2cm but it never got longer.
When I took the 60watt lightbulb (limiting resistor) out and replaced it with a 1KWatt burner from an electric stove, I got the same small streamer.
Then I turned the knobs of my variable resistors a little and burned one of the mosfets.
When the circuit operated in the sweet spot it produced a minimal amount of light (voltage drop) on the 60 watt light bulb. So light bulb in series with the power side of the circuit was a good idea for tuning and this circuit will burn if it is not in the "sweet spot" and there is no streamer.
The longer the streamer, the lower the power consumption!
Now I am looking at this circuit:
http://www.loneoceans.com/labs/qcw/
and thinking what the power consumption of it is.
What is the efficiency of this device? It uses no PLL so this idea of using PLL to drive Tesla coils is not proven to be effective ?
How much work is required to produce streamers?
Why couldn't I get a longer streamer out of my coil?
If primary resonant frequency is not so important, what is?
Coupling is bad in tesla transformers.
I am using the cheaper, older TI 4046 so it has different resistances, capacitance requirements to get a specific frequency range.
TI is the same type of IC same pinout but different resistance and capacitance requirements...
tarakan2, Mon Oct 24 2016, 02:18AM
I built the circuit.
I wound my first primary 0f about 1.6 turns. This was a calculated number based of the frequency I am working with (270KHz or about so) and 0.68uF capacitors.
The primary didn't work so well so I wound a second one with 4 turns, no longer spaced out the coils as I did before. This one worked better. I dont know why, but apparently resonance is not that important here.
I used a telephone cable with individual wires tied together on the ends.
I connected the power side of this circuit in SERIES with a 60Watt light bulb to make sure it wont draw too much current.
I used variable resistors for Resistors that connect to pins 11 and 12 on the CD4046.
I gave myself an ability to plug different capacitors between the pins 6 and 7 of the PLL IC.
Values that were used were
R1 - 12.05K - found empirically with a 100K pot
R2 - 13.70K - found empirically with a 100K pot
maybe I measured wrong because R2 always appeared to be bigger than R1
C1 was 150pF
There was a sweet spot when the streamer produced was as high as 2cm but it never got longer.
When I took the 60watt lightbulb (limiting resistor) out and replaced it with a 1KWatt burner from an electric stove, I got the same small streamer.
Then I turned the knobs of my variable resistors a little and burned one of the mosfets.
When the circuit operated in the sweet spot it produced a minimal amount of light (voltage drop) on the 60 watt light bulb. So light bulb in series with the power side of the circuit was a good idea for tuning and this circuit will burn if it is not in the "sweet spot" and there is no streamer.
The longer the streamer, the lower the power consumption!
Now I am looking at this circuit:
http://www.loneoceans.com/labs/qcw/
and thinking what the power consumption of it is.
What is the efficiency of this device? It uses no PLL so this idea of using PLL to drive Tesla coils is not proven to be effective ?
How much work is required to produce streamers?
Why couldn't I get a longer streamer out of my coil?
If primary resonant frequency is not so important, what is?
Coupling is bad in tesla transformers.
I am using the cheaper, older TI 4046 so it has different resistances, capacitance requirements to get a specific frequency range.
TI is the same type of IC same pinout but different resistance and capacitance requirements...
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