Re: Europe
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Thu Jun 23 2016, 02:03AM

Saw Roger when he came to LA, it was amazing, no encore, but it was amazing.

Not sure what the EU reference is about? Oppression is not a unique situation, it happens to all of us in many forms of control in everyday life, and it's getting to be more pervasive every day, as we are more divided and labeled into groups, if that's what the reference is about.

Re: Europe
paris, Thu Jun 23 2016, 03:53AM


ha , today I recieved thru the post , Roger Waters , In the Flesh live , cd dvd set


we are all consumers within different boundaries / economic zones .
force is used over people because its like herding cats if you let human beings live free and there is no economy that can function that way , therefore , force will be used continuously .
once humans go ferral theres no reverse button ,why would free people want to restore the society structure

Romans built Hadrians wall to keep barbarians out , it was christianity that broke the scots ... oh crikey

I dont think anyone is going to bring down the Israeli wall , will we see a concert / movement to "bring down the wall" , musicians have contracts to jewish record labels....... we will see

Re: Europe
Mads Barnkob, Thu Jun 23 2016, 05:42AM

Ash, just do not double post, there is no simpler rule than that.

Re: Europe
Patrick, Thu Jun 23 2016, 07:19PM

I think the appalling Greek economy will bleed your British veins dry. You better jump out of the EU while you can.

Re: Europe
Shrad, Fri Jun 24 2016, 08:11AM

that's not about Greece you know... all that EU administration is nothing but corruption, lobby interests and money-money deals, and all ideals are chained in a cave for a ling time... sad but true, and it will not go better... I work for a related agency and can attest that nothing is done to make it truly better, only to make it look better while the parliament is filled with compromised interests...

Re: Europe
Dr. Slack, Fri Jun 24 2016, 08:42AM

Whoops! That's what happens when you upset the proletariat and then create a protest vote over something important. It's on a scale of getting a divorce because your wife leaves the lid of the tube of toothpaste. Interesting times.

It was Churchill who said, shortly after winning WW2 'if we are to forge the United States of Europe, we must start now'.

I invite a comment from US historians. At some point after the founding 13 states created the proto US, the other states joined a few at a time, rather like Romania joining the EU recently and the debate about whether Turkey should join in the future. Did that go smoothly (I would imagine not!) ? Is it only because it happened 200 years ago and has shaken down since that political union with a common currency and local taxes works in the US?

Re: Europe
Uspring, Fri Jun 24 2016, 03:02PM

Patrick wrote:

I think the appalling Greek economy will bleed your British veins dry. You better jump out of the EU while you can.

Yes, it's costly. The EU has developed from a free trade union to a social union, where the better faring economies support the less developed ones. It's goals are ambitious: to stabilise young democracies by promoting their economies and exporting generally accepted rules of conduct. Payback is long term, stable trade relations and markets. That is a painfully slow process. In Germany, e.g., the former GDR has received hundreds of billions aid for now over a quarter of a century. They haven't caught up fully yet. The US have failed pretty much in Afghanistan (edit: meant Iraque). Wrt to the UK I can well understand impatience with this and also reluctance to believe that it will work at all.

If you prefer looking at the bottom line each quarter you might want to bail out.

Re: Europe
Bored Chemist, Sat Jun 25 2016, 09:18PM

The Greek economy is too small to make a vast difference to the EU or UK.

Re: Europe
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Jun 26 2016, 06:22AM

We were hearing "the sky is falling" constantly for months over here about the Greek economy and Merkel this and that... etc. So we really do not have an objective "gauge" of the situation over here, provided the economy had no impact on the EU, we have limited truthful information.

Re: Europe
Uspring, Mon Jun 27 2016, 10:21AM

I don't believe Greece poses a big problem wrt the UK, since the UK is not a part of the Euro zone. The European central bank has flooded the markets with Euros in order to allow states and industry to borrow money with low interest rates. That lowers the Euros external value, might also lead to financial bubbles and reduces motivation for nations with poor economies to curb public spending. I haven't noticed a major adverse effect of the ECBs policies on the citizens yet, except for the rigid rules of the Troika for Greece. That is very painful for them but unavoidable as long as the Greek economy can't support their own citizenship by itself.

Re: Europe
Patrick, Mon Jun 27 2016, 02:27PM

What I meant by the Greek example was not magnitude but attitude. Eventually there will always be more takers then makers. Communism is an example of this.

Re: Europe
WaveRider, Tue Jun 28 2016, 01:35PM

There are many reasons for what happened, IMHO. Let's list some!
1) EU institutions are indeed bloated and could operate more efficiently. (But this is true of many governments and corporations.)
2) Incessant EU bashing from political fringes for many years. (Shameless UK tabloid press at the top of the heap!)
3) EU not very good at highlighting its own positive accomplishments (e.g. lack of war, cheap package holidays to Spain Italy and Greece)
4) People take EU benefits for granted; only see the silly stuff (e.g. rules on banana curvature, size of strawberries, etc.)
5) Aussies don't call Brits "whinging Poms" for nothing
6) Fear of foreigners works every time
7) Old generation (that remembers "The War") is dying off; nobody remembers any more how horrible the European order was before 1945
8) The banks and fat-cats
9) The French
10) The Germans
11) The Greeks
12) Vladimir & The Russkies

The "Leavers" were sold a package of half-truths, fear and loathing by charletans and xenophobes who have no intention or ability to deliver what they promised. The "Stayers" were generally a flaccid bunch not really convinced of their position or so out of touch with the sentiments of the "little England" flyover regions of the UK as to be parodies of themselves. This toxic political brew is brought to you by 30 years of "financialization" and deindustrialzation by the so-called "makers". Blaming the immigrants and refugees is easy when you own the newspapers and TV stations!

Thakns for letting me rant!

Re: Europe
Shrad, Tue Jun 28 2016, 02:53PM

that was a good one actually...

Re: Europe
Patrick, Tue Jun 28 2016, 05:28PM

That Putin is going to be more and more of a problem, with or without the EU, and once that NATO line is crossed, its going to get interesting. The Europeans, I predict will start to back down as long as Putin makes promises to take only a few countries at a time.

Re: Europe
WaveRider, Tue Jun 28 2016, 06:51PM

Putin is certainly rubbing his hands with glee! I am sure his proxies in the UK have done their share of agitation to destabilize the UK's position in the EU. Would it not be the height of irony to find out that Farage and/or BoJo were agents of the KGB...ooops! FSB?

The Soviet Union famously had many moles in MI6 and the Brit parliament during the cold war years! The Brits couldn't do anything without the Soviets knowing immediately. How would today be any different..you know..with all those Russian oligarchs who've taken up residence in London. Before the Yanks get too haughty, the CIA was well infiltrated too!

Re: Europe
klugesmith, Tue Jun 28 2016, 06:55PM

That mention of Russia reminded me of DPRK, which has endorsed Donald Trump for president of USA. The Donald says radical Islamists are a more important threat to the Western order.


[edit]Does the man in black cap look like Barack Obama, perhaps taking an opportunity to photobomb old Mr. Kim?

Re: Europe
Shrad, Wed Jun 29 2016, 08:23AM

the greek situation might as well be linked to russia as most of the power and wealth is owned by either boat companies or the orthodox church, neither of them paying taxes, the first shipping russian oil and gas, the second, well, doing what religions do usually...

Re: Europe
WaveRider, Wed Jun 29 2016, 10:58AM

Hmm.. I should have known that someone else would think of it first!


Mr. "Damp Rag" himself:

BoJo shows his true colors:

Was this any surprise!:

The Donald has also been cozying up to Vlad! Authoritarians everywhere rejoice!

Re: Europe
Patrick, Wed Jun 29 2016, 07:35PM

Thats a funny pic !

Art and music can be more scary to police states than bullets.

This has been a more useful thread than i thought.

Re: Europe
WaveRider, Thu Jun 30 2016, 12:26PM

It is a funny mural that pays homage to the Russian artist Dmitri Vrubel who painted this image of Erich Honecker and Leonid Brezhnev in loving embrace on the Berlin Wall. (Photo from )

Re: Europe
Dr. Slack, Fri Jul 01 2016, 11:53AM

Well that's the UK's right wing party ditched the blond buffoon who threatened to become leader. Is the US right wing party going to do the same anytime soon?

Re: Europe
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sat Jul 02 2016, 12:09AM

The RNC is not embracing Trump. The RNC cannot control Trump.

What is a "right winger?" Is that a bible thumper? A member of the Klan? Or just any white person that votes Republican because we want to see the Rule of Law and Constitution restored to this country? I'd like to know.

Re: Europe
paris, Sat Jul 02 2016, 12:56AM

its cheaper to buy so called NZ butter or "milk" in europe than it is right here in NZ !!
globalisation has pulled the plug on everyone

Re: Europe
WaveRider, Sat Jul 02 2016, 08:59AM

Hazmatt, you ask a very good question. We can go further and ask what the "right wing" and "left wing" labels mean at all. Case in point: Trump has endorsed at various times ideas that could be either left-wing (anti-globalization, anti-war, etc.) or right wing (nativism, racism, sexism).

I believe the danger does not lie in whether someone is right wing or left wing in the traditional sense, but in the mindless mass-movement populism that risks degenerating into totalitarianism. Keep in mind that the great totalitarianisms of the 20th century embodied ideas from both left and right. Even the USA flirted with it (check out the history of Huey Long in the 1930s). Mass movements appeal to the tribalism of human nature, and if they take hold, are exceedingly dangerous to democracy..which only works when people are thinking and participating as rational citizens.

Again, we can thank the Reagan-Thatcher "revolution" of the 1980s that atomized society to such an extent that much of the citizenry feels it has little to lose. Hence, they become willing to sacrifice themselves for a leader and a "movement" (Trump, Sanders or anyone who can tap into the discontent).

Whatever one thinks of Pres. Obama, he has much in common with the last of the "Good Emperors" of ancient Rome: Marcus Aurelius; a stoic demeanor, moderation, intellect and a "reign" of constant war. Who will be the USA's Commodus?

Re: Europe
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sat Jul 02 2016, 02:31PM

Here in the US I think the labels are a little different.

Left wing = do whatever you feel makes you happy, pretty much anarchy at that point

Right wing = Christian values, reads Bible every night, has a gun, strong faith in Constitution and due process

I am not a Christian or religious really by any measure, but I am a Republican because of what I see in the values.
I am standing somewhere in the middle.


You mention Obama as an Emperor, that is exactly the problem. We LEFT Europe because we wanted due process for ALL.
We are not a monarchy, or a totalitarian dictatorship, we are a representative republic and the Presidential powers HAVE limitations.
Obama has exceeded his reach and there is no one prosecuting him for it. There is no due process, and our system has been broken internally
on purpose, this is all Alinsky, Piven and Cline tactical manuvering, but that's a whole different story.


I hop over your border and demand free everything for the rest of my life... who pays for it? The Gov't doesn't really pay for anything, it has to
take money from someone to pay for something, so who do they take the money from?
So now were at taking money from the working class and giving it to the non-working class?
what happens when there is no working class?



Left Wing
FDR = Socialist
Woman Chooses when to abort
College is Free
Socialism, Communism
God is dead
Legalize all the drugs
Global trade
We represent Labor (not totally true)
tax everything
wage war in secret
say they help the poor,
nothing has changed in 50 yrs
the Gov't. is here, cradle to grave
no guns
no speech unless the Govt allows
No God
Control
You are not smart enough to run your life

Right Wing
Abraham Lincoln = Republican
You don't get to murder
Teachers and college doesn't run on rainbows, you have to pay
Capitalism
Believe in a God or you go to hell
Legal drugs just means more crime to steal money to buy legal drugs
We should make American products with good quality
We represent Corporations (not totally true)
lower taxes
wage war in public
People need to work hard to better themselves
You're on your own, get your shit together
self protection
Criticism
God is what you believe it to be
Freedom
self determination

The list goes on and on.

Re: Europe
WaveRider, Sat Jul 02 2016, 06:04PM

Hi Hazmatt! Thanks for your long reply.

Just so you know, I am a US citizen living overseas.

Now, some thoughts on your reply.

I think your view highlights the superficial view most of us Americans have about politics. The traditional left as we know it is linked to classical socialism (appearing with the Utopianism of Fourier and ideas of Rousseau, etc.) and later, the ideas of Karl Marx. Your mention of "whatever makes you happy" as a definition of "left" is indeed based in some of these utopian ideas. This is too simple, though. Classical left ideas cover a wide spectrum. Even the founders of the USA wrote "happiness" into their founding documents, so if Americans are to pursue happiness (whatever that is, this is a big philosophical question), the idea of being happy is more than just one from the left. It is a liberal idea. By saying this, i am speaking of classical liberalism, i.e. founded on:
1) Anti monarchical ideas
2) private property
3) Anti clericalism
4) System of laws governing society
5) State ensures the common welfare of citizens
6) in exchange, citizens support the state (taxes, military levies in times of war, etc.)
and many more.

Your lists are really nothing but "hot button" issues that say nothing about ideology. For example, I could be a revolutionary Leninist seeking to overthrow the government. This is a far Left position, but I could exercise my 2nd Amendment right to achieve these ends, no? Another example: I could be a devout Christian who reads the bible every day, spreading the word as an evangelist and be a complete pacifist, a protestor for economic justice and go to jail after smashing nose cones of nuclear missiles. (Google Plowshares movement).

I mentioned Obama as "Emperor" not because it is somehow his fault that the USA is in its present state. The USA was moving from its classical "republican" (in the sense of Republic) values since the end of the Second World War. The "National Security State" that came about was (is ) the result of both Democrat and Republican administrations. Obama is about as far "left" as Richard Nixon was. The degradation of civil society in the USA has more to do with the rise of this national security state apparatus than with any one president. This degradation, keep in mind, took place with the full consent of the electorate. In some ways, what's happening today resembles the disappearance the Roman Republic after the economic and social crisis in Rome at the end of its expansionary period.

Do not think for one minute that if a Republican is in office, it will be any better than under Obama. For real change, there has to be some serious attitude shifts among the US electorate if the USA is to survive in a form recognizable as a constitutional state. There needs to be a shift away from the stupid hot button issues and more serious consideration of constructing well-functioning policy to fix big problems (like immigration, tax policy, economic inequality, gun violence and many more). This means moving away from screaming at each other and "dialoguing". Politics in a democracy is all about compromise, and in a sane world compromise could certainly be found on guns, for example.

I leave you with this non-exhaustive list of political ideologies:
Left:
Stalinism
Leninism
Maoism
Trotskyism
Classical Marxism
Anarcho-syndicalism
Environmental utopianism
Classical socialism
Utopian socialism
Christian utopianism
Classical liberalism
Libertarian socialism
National socialism

Right:
Monarchism
Classical liberalism
Christian utopianism
National socialism
Fascism
Stalinism
Maoism

(Notice the overlap in some ideologies)

Left and right is so much more than "who pays for what and how". We have the same simple-minded arguments here in Europe and I hope people wake up to the fact that it's not the powerless (poor, refugees, etc.), but the so called elites that have sold us out. Don't be fooled. It has always been a successful tactic of the elites to deflect their failings on those below: the poor, the working people and middle class. Republican or democrat, it doesn't matter!

Re: Europe
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sat Jul 02 2016, 06:32PM

I just really want the law enforced, that's what we're all after ultimately, equal treatment and protection under law.

I am not "all in" for Trump, and I really don't support him either, I am moderate when it comes to my views except when it comes to acts of treason and clear violations of national security policies, which may not be a big part of your job overseas, but in my job, national security is a big deal and I have to follow the policy.

I don't agree with your definitions of the "Right", but that is because from your reference point (like general relativity), they are right of your political views. A monarchy or Fascism are still far left from my point of reference.
In my view, Obama is right of Hitler and Stalin. He would assume power similar to Hitler or Stalin if the Constitution were not preventing him from taking complete control.

But like you say, whether we agree or disagree in our views, or see eye to eye doesn't really matter, what is important is being able to talk about it and see where we all stand, .... therefore making it easy for the left to herd us into groups, label us and control us... HAHAHH as that is their ultimate goal for power and control.

It is unfortunate that we have an entire Spectrum of politics, it makes everything infinitely more complicated.

Re: Europe
jpsmith123, Sat Jul 02 2016, 07:36PM

The U.S. is not a functioning "democracy", nor has it been for a long time. An actual "democracy" cannot exist without features such as transparency and accountability, which essentially don't exist in the U.S.
Thus "presidents" like Obama are no more than political puppet rulers answerable only to the ruling Satanic cult.

Re: Europe
hen918, Sat Jul 02 2016, 09:29PM

Put simply: politics are as complicated as people.
You can say whether a very specific idea is right or left but people and organisations have a very broad range of ideas.

Re: Europe
paris, Sun Jul 03 2016, 07:04AM

who pays for what and how ?

over seas debt , payable by tax payer but whos lending the money ? where does IMF money come from ?
left or right , most countries are controlled from BEHIND with strings attached .
communism "colapsed" and state assets went to privatisation , all the sudden there were billionaires . this happened in NZ , this is not supposed to be a former communist state yet the same game plan is in place everywhere.
communism used to be a bad word , I cant remember the last time I heard china reffered to as communist China , all countries trade with China, its a commercial gold mine .
how about trade with Cuba ? oh shit no thems commies!!

left and right is just re shuffling the population . the history of USA gov is either this party or that , then back to the other , no different then any country . (England)
the minority rule the majority not the other way around , as long as people beleive they have choice

Re: Europe
tobias, Mon Jul 04 2016, 12:34AM

The only problem I have with the Right wing is sometimes "freedom" is only for those who fit their belief system. When homosexuals do not have the same rights and freedom heteros do. When foreigners do not share the same obligations and the same rights as citizens. The list goes on and on. I just hope both the UK and the US do not follow the trend of increasing nationalism while also increasing that sentiment of hate and discrimination towards all who do not have the same "Right" beliefs or do not fit the same profile.

Re: Europe
Patrick, Mon Jul 04 2016, 09:10PM

I love this thread. John Stossel and Gary Johnson would too.

Re: Europe
dexter, Mon Jul 04 2016, 09:35PM


to understand Europe nations politics you'll need to stars looking some good hundreds of years in the past. Also right and left in Europe varies greatly from country to country and most of the time is a complete mix. In such political climate a political union of Europe is bound to fail... which started with UK's BREXIT

In your comment if you replace Right with Left, minorities with majorities and nationalism with globalism/open borders you get an accurate description of the current Left.
Is the old saying: taken at extreme the Right and the Left are indistinguishable from each other

Re: Europe
hen918, Tue Jul 05 2016, 04:57PM

This must be considered proof that the univese has no end, it just wraps around :)
infinity = -infinity

Re: Europe
Patrick, Tue Jul 05 2016, 07:51PM


like that dragon circle eating its own tail.

Re: Europe
tobias, Wed Jul 06 2016, 12:20AM

Dexter, I have more trouble accepting the left than I have accepting the right. If only the right would embrace everyone, not just certain groups...

Re: Europe
dexter, Wed Jul 06 2016, 06:39AM


both left and right have good and bad parts and none has the monopole on truth... so seeing the world as left vs right only creates division (at best)

a better way is libertarian vs authoritarian and individualism vs collectivism

Re: Europe
paris, Thu Jul 07 2016, 03:01AM

fundamentally , Romans vs Barbarians

Re: Europe
Uspring, Thu Jul 07 2016, 12:33PM

On a more abstract level left and right is more about humans being "equal".

What that precisely means is not clear. Equality may imply equal rights, equal income, equal social status, influence etc. The views on equality can also be relevant wrt nations as a whole. Equal income, e.g., curbs incentive, while the unlimited accumulation of wealth and power by a few individuals will not be accepted by the rest. Like everything, that is a question of balance.

Re: Europe
hen918, Thu Jul 07 2016, 05:08PM


Part of the problem with equality or anarchist communism as you have described, is that there is no way to irrefutably determine effort in order to ensure that everyone is doing an equal effort of work. Without everyone doing the same effort of work, resentment will be caused between workers (she/he is doing less work than me!). This causes the workers to do the bare minimum, decreasing efficiency, and / or requiring a controlling power to compel the workers to perform (equally). A controlling power creates inequality and, in extremes, dictatorship.
The only way you could achieve true anarchist communism is with robots!

Re: Europe
Ash Small, Tue Aug 16 2016, 09:00PM

This turned into a very interesting thread. Sorry Mads for double posting, it was late, etc.

Personally, having read the thread through, I now see Socialism as the 'middle path' between the Communism of the East and the Capitalism of the West.

I think that what is happening in Britain's Labour Party is more than just 'anti establishment', although that is one element, as is the case in America, where I see a campaign even more dirty that the Brexit campaign.

The Establishment seem to be losing credibility on both sides of the Pond, but I hear that the US now owes China $17 Trillion. Neither the Republicans or Democrats seem to be saying much about it, though.

I also understand that China has a missile system that can take out every US aircraft carrier anywhere in the world, and the US doesn't yet have a system to combat it.

The balance of power is changing. Do we want China to get everything it's own way?

Re: Europe
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed Aug 17 2016, 01:24AM

And robots will ultimately have a "need" to become more "human", because robots lack many facets which make us creative, intuitive, flexible (adaptive), innovative, and hell... have an argument that goes nowhere.

Put two roombas in a room, they have almost complete freedom to do whatever, they're still just going to clean the floor because they were created with that purpose in mind.
A robot without purpose is just going to sit there and wait for a purpose, eg. 10 Wait for event, 20 Act, 30 Go to 10.

So the whole robot thing is a bust, without an inherent purpose put there by it's creator, it will do nothing because to do so otherwise is wasteful of resources that might be needed elsewhere.

Re: Europe
dexter, Wed Aug 17 2016, 04:38AM


but whoever makes the robots has the power so again no equality... unless the robots are equipped with AI... in which case dystopia here we come

Re: Europe
Ash Small, Wed Aug 17 2016, 09:04PM

Isn't the ONLY real alternative to dystopia socialism?

As humans are required to work less and less hours, and the capitalist system is a 'pyramid' system, where, eventually, the man at the top has 'supreme power', where is the difference between capitalism and a communist dictatorship?

Is socialism the only alternative to dystopia, and the anniahilation of 99% of the human race?

(We've all seen the movies )

Re: Europe
dexter, Thu Aug 18 2016, 05:56AM

but socialism creates lazy ppl through governmental handouts in form of welfare...
also leveling the playing field (to prevent man at the top having supreme power situations) can only be done through violence and by restricting individual rights

so for all intents and purposes socialism is dystopia...

Re: Europe
paris, Thu Aug 18 2016, 09:08AM


usual process is to send young and fittest off to war , one way , there by leveling the playing field in order to preserve the social hierachy . culling is the word

Re: Europe
WaveRider, Thu Aug 18 2016, 11:25AM


This is a good point, and one well studied by political philosophers. Hannah Arendt devoted a large part of her massive tome "Origins of Totalitarianism" on the use of war and colonies to dispose of what she termed "excess population". The Brits used the colonies in the Americas to dump settlers and prisoners (and then Australia, after 1783) to relieve population pressure and maintain economic and social stability in Britain. Germany looked to the east (Russia, Poland) as a place to dump its excess population and to relieve economic and food production pressures. Pan germanic nationalism was used to justify these actions. At the time, Europe was going through a period of stagnation not unlike what we are seeing now. We can look forward to a whole host of political pathology and demagogues as people seek to break through the stagnation. War on a scale of 1939-1945 could be a possibility within a generation if we are not careful.

Re: Europe
Ash Small, Sat Aug 20 2016, 08:01PM


That is certainly the most probable outcome with either Capitalism or Communism. However a true 'Socialist' society, which, by definition, be both fair and democratic would only ever go to war in self defence, surely?

Re: Europe
Conundrum, Wed Sept 14 2016, 04:28AM

Bad news, my ISP has gone "Full Hitler (tm)", blocking 4HV, reddit, NSF, etc. What part of "Free and open Internet" don't they understand, you cannot suppress the truth. Having to type this via anonymizer, now going to see if I can get this block overturned through the courts.

Re: Europe
Uspring, Wed Sept 14 2016, 11:19AM

All your internet are belong to us
Too much hassle going to court. Terminate your contract with your ISP on behalf of not fullfillment and change to another. There is a lot of satisfaction seeing a provider change its policy due to customers running.

Re: Europe
klugesmith, Wed Sept 14 2016, 06:53PM

Uspring's meme cliché prompted some searching. Waste of time till I found this:

at

Re: Europe
Mads Barnkob, Wed Sept 14 2016, 07:03PM


So Conundrum just has to use IGBTs exclusively

Re: Europe
Bored Chemist, Fri Sept 16 2016, 04:43PM

Yes, and Capitalism does the same- but on a much bigger scale through tax breaks.

Or could it be that some people are lazy anyway, and will take advantage of whatever system they find themselves in?