Playing Zeus
IamSmooth, Wed Nov 01 2006, 01:26AMWhen I built a Tesla Coil years ago while in high school I would hold a piece of metal and draw sparks off of the top. The sparks were only 12". I now understand that if the sparks are long enough they can strike the primary and 60hz current could flow through the body to ground. For this reason I have seen some use strike rails.
I would like to know from the experienced coilers do any of you draw off streamers with your hand under any circumstances; or, was I doing something totally stupid under any conditions? If you do draw off streamers, is there a limit to the spark length you will go before saying this is too much?
Re: Playing Zeus
Nik, Wed Nov 01 2006, 02:01AM
No, never touch the sparks from a tesla, ever.
Nik, Wed Nov 01 2006, 02:01AM
No, never touch the sparks from a tesla, ever.
Re: Playing Zeus
ragnar, Wed Nov 01 2006, 02:18AM
FYI, my smaller SSTCs usually have a floating ground (e.g. copper plate on wooden bench). Arc length isn't a good measure of the power or frequency you're passing.
You'll find discussion regarding the drawing of sparks to extremities is generally frowned upon here. =P
Drawing sparks off CW coils, regardless of size is generally a no-no. =P
If you know what the RF envelope "feels" like, interrupted coils aren't so bad up to maybe 2ft, but nasty burns result if you're not careful with grounding and pass too much current, or hit the primary, etc. You could probably die if you tried hard enough.
Some might consider standing on a milkcrate or similar to reduce the risk of being near a nice ground, but for the record, you'll A) look silly, and B) probably fall on the coil.
If you can, try to stick to using an insulating rod (e.g. blue nylon pressure-piping) with a groundwire/probe tacked firmly to the end you're not holding. If you must take arcs to your body, from the surface-burns point of a view, a firm hold on a metal rod (and arcs to the rod) isn't too bad... remember -- you have no idea where the current's going to go. If you realise that you'd been quietly burning away at, say, the bottom of your big toe to a floorboard nail/waterpipe, it really sucks to find/feel the burn later, so take care.
I hope the guys don't flame you too much for asking.
I never found SGTCs to have an agreeable sensation unless the sparklength is <~10cm or so =P
ragnar, Wed Nov 01 2006, 02:18AM
FYI, my smaller SSTCs usually have a floating ground (e.g. copper plate on wooden bench). Arc length isn't a good measure of the power or frequency you're passing.
You'll find discussion regarding the drawing of sparks to extremities is generally frowned upon here. =P
Drawing sparks off CW coils, regardless of size is generally a no-no. =P
If you know what the RF envelope "feels" like, interrupted coils aren't so bad up to maybe 2ft, but nasty burns result if you're not careful with grounding and pass too much current, or hit the primary, etc. You could probably die if you tried hard enough.
Some might consider standing on a milkcrate or similar to reduce the risk of being near a nice ground, but for the record, you'll A) look silly, and B) probably fall on the coil.
If you can, try to stick to using an insulating rod (e.g. blue nylon pressure-piping) with a groundwire/probe tacked firmly to the end you're not holding. If you must take arcs to your body, from the surface-burns point of a view, a firm hold on a metal rod (and arcs to the rod) isn't too bad... remember -- you have no idea where the current's going to go. If you realise that you'd been quietly burning away at, say, the bottom of your big toe to a floorboard nail/waterpipe, it really sucks to find/feel the burn later, so take care.
I hope the guys don't flame you too much for asking.
I never found SGTCs to have an agreeable sensation unless the sparklength is <~10cm or so =P
Re: Playing Zeus
Steve Ward, Wed Nov 01 2006, 02:18AM
Let me say this... i used to draw sparks to my body when i was younger and naive. I have personally experienced pain in my joints after "direct exposure" to my SSTC sparks. I never touched SGTC sparks much, since they usually had a nasty low frequency component that i could definately feel!
Just use a grounded target instead of your body.
Steve Ward, Wed Nov 01 2006, 02:18AM
Let me say this... i used to draw sparks to my body when i was younger and naive. I have personally experienced pain in my joints after "direct exposure" to my SSTC sparks. I never touched SGTC sparks much, since they usually had a nasty low frequency component that i could definately feel!
Just use a grounded target instead of your body.
Re: Playing Zeus
IamSmooth, Wed Nov 01 2006, 03:27AM
I appreciate the comments. I am in no way advocating touching the streamers. If anything, I would hope your comments serve as a warning for people not to touch them.
I guess I was naive back then. Luckily, nothing bad happened.
IamSmooth, Wed Nov 01 2006, 03:27AM
I appreciate the comments. I am in no way advocating touching the streamers. If anything, I would hope your comments serve as a warning for people not to touch them.
I guess I was naive back then. Luckily, nothing bad happened.
Re: Playing Zeus
Marko, Wed Nov 01 2006, 11:08AM
yup, I aslo wouldn't reccomend anyone doing it - nastyness of burns simply isn't worth of it.
I do it sometimes just by tingling streamer tips, hopefully when coil is interrupted, but don't reccomend if you don't know what are you doing.
Holding a piece of metal usually dramatically helps there by increasing surface of contact to skin and preventing hot plasma contacting it; but you can also get in trouble if coil is to big and metal-hand contact surface small! SO don't do it either.
Generally, at TC frequencies only effect of current to body is heating, there are no electrochemical effects nor nerve effects (can't stop your heart, lungs, brain , etc) humans seem to be capable of passing much more current than with, etc, 50Hz mains.
Some people on this forum (IIRC, they all lived) used to light small lightbulbs by passing current trough their bodies. Once contact to skin (or capacitance) is good enough body resistance may drop to some 1500ohms, and if you pass current of 100mA it would be 150W dissipation on body, and 25W bulb shining brightly. (I hope this will discourage you from drawing SSTC arcs).
About primary-secondary strkes on SGTC; when they happen, there are couple of things that actually 'prevent' the secondary acting as pilot transformer for 50Hz current;
First, if it happens, and secondary is well grounded, 50/60Hz current will simply get grounded trough secondary base and spare us from shock (but not with poor grounding(!)
Also, power supply is shorted each time gap fires so worst we should see is bps-frequency component.
Another good protection from such shocks is using side-tapped grounded supply (wich is rarely used simply because of insulation purposes) and grounding the primary well.
That's probably best protection from flashover shocks we can have.
Sparks from disruptive coils themselves do shock because of high peak poewr and current from topload, on low frequency (about same-type of shock as VDG). I don't remember anyone dying of it, but it's definitely unpleasant.
So, I can't recommend anyone to 'play zeus' with TC's, no matter what I do.
As nik already said, simply don't do it and use a chicken stick...
Marko, Wed Nov 01 2006, 11:08AM
Drawing sparks off CW coils, regardless of size is generally a no-no. =P
yup, I aslo wouldn't reccomend anyone doing it - nastyness of burns simply isn't worth of it.
I do it sometimes just by tingling streamer tips, hopefully when coil is interrupted, but don't reccomend if you don't know what are you doing.
Holding a piece of metal usually dramatically helps there by increasing surface of contact to skin and preventing hot plasma contacting it; but you can also get in trouble if coil is to big and metal-hand contact surface small! SO don't do it either.
Generally, at TC frequencies only effect of current to body is heating, there are no electrochemical effects nor nerve effects (can't stop your heart, lungs, brain , etc) humans seem to be capable of passing much more current than with, etc, 50Hz mains.
Some people on this forum (IIRC, they all lived) used to light small lightbulbs by passing current trough their bodies. Once contact to skin (or capacitance) is good enough body resistance may drop to some 1500ohms, and if you pass current of 100mA it would be 150W dissipation on body, and 25W bulb shining brightly. (I hope this will discourage you from drawing SSTC arcs).
About primary-secondary strkes on SGTC; when they happen, there are couple of things that actually 'prevent' the secondary acting as pilot transformer for 50Hz current;
First, if it happens, and secondary is well grounded, 50/60Hz current will simply get grounded trough secondary base and spare us from shock (but not with poor grounding(!)
Also, power supply is shorted each time gap fires so worst we should see is bps-frequency component.
Another good protection from such shocks is using side-tapped grounded supply (wich is rarely used simply because of insulation purposes) and grounding the primary well.
That's probably best protection from flashover shocks we can have.
Sparks from disruptive coils themselves do shock because of high peak poewr and current from topload, on low frequency (about same-type of shock as VDG). I don't remember anyone dying of it, but it's definitely unpleasant.
So, I can't recommend anyone to 'play zeus' with TC's, no matter what I do.
As nik already said, simply don't do it and use a chicken stick...
Re: Playing Zeus
vasil, Wed Nov 01 2006, 03:06PM
You can do the trick with low power coils, but not with bare hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS-iRY3H5S0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UBRkb7qTH8
I do not recomand it for more than 100 W powers. The VTTC seems "softer" for the bare hand, but still they can produce internal damage.
vasil, Wed Nov 01 2006, 03:06PM
You can do the trick with low power coils, but not with bare hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS-iRY3H5S0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UBRkb7qTH8
I do not recomand it for more than 100 W powers. The VTTC seems "softer" for the bare hand, but still they can produce internal damage.
Re: Playing Zeus
Dr. Drone, Wed Nov 01 2006, 04:49PM
Dr. Drone, Wed Nov 01 2006, 04:49PM
Re: Playing Zeus
ragnar, Wed Nov 01 2006, 11:46PM
The white labcoat is a nice touch in some of your newer photos, Chris =D
ragnar, Wed Nov 01 2006, 11:46PM
The white labcoat is a nice touch in some of your newer photos, Chris =D
Re: Playing Zeus
Terry Fritz, Thu Nov 02 2006, 05:01AM
Hi,
Many people play with Tesla coil arcs directly.
7.3Meg but really worth it 
Didn't have a good link for Danielle Stampe...
These people can die very quickly.... They have 25+ years of experience...
The more we learn of Tesla coil arcs, the further back we all get *;-))
People that play with arcs and live for a long time know a LOT!!! A lot more than most...
Air streamers will fry your vessels and nerves. Ground strikes at thousands of amps do completely unknown things to you. They killed Henry Transtrom...
Recent medical data suggests that there is a very vulnerable "instant" in the heart beat cycle where electrical shock is vastly more fatal... The doctor that discovered it, killed himself trying to study it
Many play the "shark suit" game...
But recent info is very scary there too
Be very aware that today's "highly power engineered" Tesla coils deliver vastly more power than the old screwed up coils of the 20's... Circuits like used in the SISG PIRANHA coil will blow large chunks of flesh off you in flames if you get across it wrong!! (It's ok since your already very dead :0)) There ain't no current limiting in that case... I spent all day today working on four layer insulation for the primary...
DRSSTCs too have virtually NO current limiting....
I have played with CW coils) But they were completely computer controlled circuits that I know very well... They cannot deliver "DC" and can't arc over... I have taken many arcs in the past and it seemed easy... But the "potential" for harm is high...
In general, if you don't know enough about the circuit to be sure your are safe, you are NOT!!!
You will see many people playing with arcs... The more I know, the more I fear for them... It is sort of like those "highly expert" BASE jumpers:
Cheers,
Terry
Terry Fritz, Thu Nov 02 2006, 05:01AM
Hi,
Many people play with Tesla coil arcs directly.
7.3Meg but really worth it 
Didn't have a good link for Danielle Stampe...
These people can die very quickly.... They have 25+ years of experience...
The more we learn of Tesla coil arcs, the further back we all get *;-))
People that play with arcs and live for a long time know a LOT!!! A lot more than most...
Air streamers will fry your vessels and nerves. Ground strikes at thousands of amps do completely unknown things to you. They killed Henry Transtrom...
Recent medical data suggests that there is a very vulnerable "instant" in the heart beat cycle where electrical shock is vastly more fatal... The doctor that discovered it, killed himself trying to study it
Many play the "shark suit" game...
But recent info is very scary there too
Be very aware that today's "highly power engineered" Tesla coils deliver vastly more power than the old screwed up coils of the 20's... Circuits like used in the SISG PIRANHA coil will blow large chunks of flesh off you in flames if you get across it wrong!! (It's ok since your already very dead :0)) There ain't no current limiting in that case... I spent all day today working on four layer insulation for the primary...
DRSSTCs too have virtually NO current limiting....
I have played with CW coils
) But they were completely computer controlled circuits that I know very well... They cannot deliver "DC" and can't arc over... I have taken many arcs in the past and it seemed easy... But the "potential" for harm is high...In general, if you don't know enough about the circuit to be sure your are safe, you are NOT!!!
You will see many people playing with arcs... The more I know, the more I fear for them... It is sort of like those "highly expert" BASE jumpers:
Cheers,
Terry
Re: Playing Zeus
IamSmooth, Thu Nov 02 2006, 12:59PM
You are referring to the T-wave repolarization phase of the heartbeat. It is at this point that a delivered electric shock of the right amount of joules (external or internal) can induce ventricular fibrillation. EPS physicians do this when testing AICD devices to make sure they work in the patient.
IamSmooth, Thu Nov 02 2006, 12:59PM
Terry Fritz wrote ...
Recent medical data suggests that there is a very vulnerable "instant" in the heart beat cycle where electrical shock is vastly more fatal... The doctor that discovered it, killed himself trying to study it
Recent medical data suggests that there is a very vulnerable "instant" in the heart beat cycle where electrical shock is vastly more fatal... The doctor that discovered it, killed himself trying to study it
You are referring to the T-wave repolarization phase of the heartbeat. It is at this point that a delivered electric shock of the right amount of joules (external or internal) can induce ventricular fibrillation. EPS physicians do this when testing AICD devices to make sure they work in the patient.
Re: Playing Zeus
Part Scavenger, Fri Nov 03 2006, 02:25AM
5W. :P
Yeah, and if I understand it correctly, the HV component effecively lowers body resistance and lets more current flow, now that it's available...
I wouldn't suggest it. A grounded screwdriver in a piece of PVC is just as fun. I did get bit by my SGTC once (I was running about 42" at time), I only felt it where it jumped out my ankle, but really, under the right conditions I could have been dead. Not a pleasant thought.
I'll do it on little SGTC coils (like LITTLE as in flybacks at low power). You can still touch something you shouldn't. I wouldn't wish a SSTC burn on most people, I never touch those.
Part Scavenger, Fri Nov 03 2006, 02:25AM
5W. :P
...could flow through the body to ground.
Yeah, and if I understand it correctly, the HV component effecively lowers body resistance and lets more current flow, now that it's available...
I wouldn't suggest it. A grounded screwdriver in a piece of PVC is just as fun. I did get bit by my SGTC once (I was running about 42" at time), I only felt it where it jumped out my ankle, but really, under the right conditions I could have been dead. Not a pleasant thought.
I'll do it on little SGTC coils (like LITTLE as in flybacks at low power). You can still touch something you shouldn't. I wouldn't wish a SSTC burn on most people, I never touch those.
Re: Playing Zeus
IamSmooth, Fri Nov 03 2006, 02:57AM
I notice that some of you are making distinctions between SSTC and SGTC. How does this affect the lethality or at least your level of caution?
IamSmooth, Fri Nov 03 2006, 02:57AM
I notice that some of you are making distinctions between SSTC and SGTC. How does this affect the lethality or at least your level of caution?
Re: Playing Zeus
ragnar, Fri Nov 03 2006, 03:46AM
CW SSTCs are dangerous in that you could easily get deep tissue burns without realising until all too late. I'm more careful about getting burns from nearby metal objects.. floating grounds, etc, around an SSTC.
SGTCs tend to be bigger, scarier and the sensation isn't so agreeable. The noisiness of the sparks and gap acts as a natural deterrent, too.
ragnar, Fri Nov 03 2006, 03:46AM
CW SSTCs are dangerous in that you could easily get deep tissue burns without realising until all too late. I'm more careful about getting burns from nearby metal objects.. floating grounds, etc, around an SSTC.
SGTCs tend to be bigger, scarier and the sensation isn't so agreeable. The noisiness of the sparks and gap acts as a natural deterrent, too.
Re: Playing Zeus
Marko, Fri Nov 03 2006, 09:52AM
None is proven to be directly lethal, unless you are of very bad health or something.
Shock from disruptive is somehow similar to a large VDG and cant be very unpleasant, but hardly lethal. You can get yourself killed; if you do various stunts, sit on topload or etc. and start a power arc to primary circuit, mains or etc; touch wrong part of primary circuit, set a chain of events that lead to primary-scondary flashover, power arc and you get yourself killed again.
Normal (non-DR) SSTC's can hardly reach SGTC power levels, they usually operate 'just' on mains voltage and it's usually harder to start power arcing to something.
Sparks may leave horrid burns but nervous and other effects areusually omitable.
You can use common sense with SSTC's; only effect it does is heat, adn I can for example touch the arc briefly same way as I would touch flame of ciggarete lighter or etc.
Large CW arcs are not going to be touched for same reason you wouldn't touch a blowtorch flame or burning log.
Even if you hold some piece of metal in hand you can still have too much contact resistance and torch your hand.
So please use grounded rod again!
Marko, Fri Nov 03 2006, 09:52AM
None is proven to be directly lethal, unless you are of very bad health or something.
Shock from disruptive is somehow similar to a large VDG and cant be very unpleasant, but hardly lethal. You can get yourself killed; if you do various stunts, sit on topload or etc. and start a power arc to primary circuit, mains or etc; touch wrong part of primary circuit, set a chain of events that lead to primary-scondary flashover, power arc and you get yourself killed again.
Normal (non-DR) SSTC's can hardly reach SGTC power levels, they usually operate 'just' on mains voltage and it's usually harder to start power arcing to something.
Sparks may leave horrid burns but nervous and other effects areusually omitable.
You can use common sense with SSTC's; only effect it does is heat, adn I can for example touch the arc briefly same way as I would touch flame of ciggarete lighter or etc.
Large CW arcs are not going to be touched for same reason you wouldn't touch a blowtorch flame or burning log.
Even if you hold some piece of metal in hand you can still have too much contact resistance and torch your hand.
So please use grounded rod again!
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