Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Kolas, Mon Jan 12 2015, 09:34PM

I'm still operating with a fairly slow scope (20mhz.) I've been told, and I believe it, timebase delay is a very good feature to have!
the faster the scope the better detail you can get, so I'd get the the fastest thing you can get! perhaps others have more opinions about the other questions you posed.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
loneoceans, Tue Jan 13 2015, 03:06AM

No question, the Rigol DS1054z for $399. It is by far the best value scope on the market and I don't think anyone can argue otherwise.
I hear it's upgradable..

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Graham Armitage, Tue Jan 13 2015, 03:33AM

Other than 4 vs 2 channels what is the 1054 giving you that the 1052 would not? Larger display?
Running quad channels I believe the sample rate is down to 250MS/s.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Mads Barnkob, Tue Jan 13 2015, 08:12AM


I have the DS1052E and find it good enough as a entry level oscilloscope, if you start from scratch I would recommend that you spend the rest of your money on a Pearson current monitor and a differential probe. Those two tools will help you way more than additional 2 channels.

I do also dream about the larger screen, more inputs and perhaps better firmware. But when you look at the price, you get a good DSO for starters. You are right about the 1GS/s rating of the 1054 is divided out on the four channels.

I think the general rule of thumb regarding speed of the oscilloscope is that you want at least twice the rating as the signal you are looking at. You will never look at 25MHz signals when working with Tesla coils, so a 50MHz oscilloscope is more than enough, sample rate and memory depth is much more important.

From what I can find on ebay, there is a price difference from 220£ DS1052E to 320£ DS1054Z

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Shrad, Tue Jan 13 2015, 09:55AM

also, a small analog one like a trio 10Mhz is always a good addition, as you'll never have the same "trace feeling" with a digital scope... sometimes it will be easier to trigger and use an analog scope

also, you don't want to fry your new $400 rigol scope, hence the $50 analog one

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Wolfram, Tue Jan 13 2015, 12:33PM


In addition to the two extra channels and the larger screen that you mentioned, there are some significant differences. 12 times the memory depth (24 times with the memory upgrade option) which is extremely useful. In addition, the 1054Z has a lot of fancy and useful features like intensity grading. The 1054 is newer by about 6 years, so there are in general major differences.

I was unable to find a direct comparison between the two, but this comparison between the 1052 and the 2072. The 2072 is a higher end scope than the 1054, but a lot of the features and interface are very similar.

I wouldn't consider a 1052 unless it was less than a quarter of the price of the 1054, and only if I couldn't afford the 1054. Reading about it now, I'm pretty sure I'll buy a 1054 myself now.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Shrad, Tue Jan 13 2015, 02:45PM

beware that those models can be modified to unlock some features (at least they could last year)

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Graham Armitage, Tue Jan 13 2015, 02:53PM

Thanks for the feedback everyone. All good points. On the RigolNA website the DS1052E is going for $329 and the DS1054Z for $399. For the $70 more it seems obvious.

Any other makes to consider, or does Rigol offer best bang for the buck?

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Wolfram, Tue Jan 13 2015, 03:32PM

At the moment it seems like the best option available in this price range, especially considering the reported upgradeability.

When looking for info for the comparison, I was so impressed with the 1054 that I ended up ordering one. I'll report back when I receive it.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Graham Armitage, Tue Jan 13 2015, 03:34PM

Where did you order from? The Rigol website said 9-11 weeks to ship !!

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Wolfram, Tue Jan 13 2015, 03:46PM

I ordered from Batronix in Germany. Their shipping rates are reasonable so getting one from them would be around 420 dollars including shipping to the US. Maybe there would be some additional import taxes on top, I'm not too familiar with how this works in the US. However, I found the scope at Tequipment for a lower total price as they do free shipping within the US. Edit:There's no indicator showing that they are in stock at Tequipment however.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Graham Armitage, Tue Jan 13 2015, 03:49PM

Thanks for the that - probably the best price around for a new one.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Mads Barnkob, Wed Jan 14 2015, 08:20AM


I stand corrected on the pricing, there is no reason to take the DS1052E over the DS1054Z.

However you do want to get yourself a differential probe to be able to measure isolated from the oscilloscope ground. You can find 2nd hand Tektronix P5200 at ebay at around 250$. You do not need a pearson current monitor, a homemade like the ones we use for feedback could do, there is just a much larger error margin without a calibrated unit.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Wolfram, Thu Jan 15 2015, 10:32PM

Received mine, so far I'm very happy with it. I've attached a picture of it measuring a very jittery oscillator in my induction heating test setup.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Graham Armitage, Fri Jan 16 2015, 12:27PM

That looks great. I noticed the Tektronics Scope below it. Very similar model to what I have now. Digital and capture features aside, how does the 1054 compare?

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Mads Barnkob, Fri Jan 16 2015, 01:47PM

I am interested in some story about its USB memory stick interfacing, PC communication etc. How well does it handle this?

The DS1052E USB support is very selective and could fill a wrong formatted/sixe/whatever stick with random chinese signs and 4GB files. The PC software was next to useless, never used it after the day I got the scope.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
JoeBonanno, Fri Jan 16 2015, 04:31PM

i have the OWON 7102v, same of Rigol DS1052 but 8" screen and LAN support and native 100mhz max!

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Wolfram, Fri Jan 16 2015, 05:39PM


They're different tools, even if they have the same purpose. I love my old Tek 2225 (and my 2465B), but this is my first digital scope that seriously threatens them. For practical reasons, I guess the Rigol will be used much more than my old analog scopes, but they are still the main priority when looking at low level audio signals and things like that. For these reasons, I'll keep both on my bench, and get the best of both worlds.

As far as file saving goes, I haven't tried it yet, but I haven't heard anything about major bugs. The scope also has a USB slave port for direct connection to a computer, and an LXI-compliant ethernet port for remote readout and control.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Dave47, Sat Jan 17 2015, 04:59AM


I second the OWON 7102v. Pretty good scope and nice, large display.

David

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
teravolt, Sat Jan 17 2015, 04:42PM

2 CH is acceptable for tesla work but I would get 4 CH if you plan to do engineering work like developing your own circuits. I was developing my own QCW tesla and ended up buying a second scope. I bought boath of my second hand Tektronix scopes on eBay for a decent savings. I think that Rigol is a good brand. what is your price range

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Signification, Fri Feb 06 2015, 02:18PM

I dug out an old current monitor that I have had om the shelf a few years. It is made by Gauss Control, Inc. The only spec I have on it is 0.1 V/A. I am attempting to attach two photos of it (...hope I resized them correctly Mads). I was thinking about selling it on ebay but have changed my mind. My primary app. was laser flashtube current monitoring (a slightly field on 4HV), but after joining recently I think it will be active in my coilgun research. I also have a DSO1060 scope. It is still unused but I plan to change that as I will have some large coils wound soon.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Feb 08 2015, 06:19AM

I just picked up a Tek 2465B 400 MHz analog/digital scope, and it's wonderful. Having cursors is great. So my main bench has a fully capable scope now, replacing the BK 30 MHz scope.

I still love my Tek 2430A, but its on my desk, not my main test bench.

Digital features on a scope is a must! Even if the scope is from the '90's.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Hydron, Tue Feb 10 2015, 05:20PM

Got a DS1104Z at work yesterday. Haven't used all the features yet, but from what I've seen so far it's definitely good value for money (50MHz version even more so, but we weren't going to hack one for work use).
We got it calibrated before delivery (company policy) and one thing of interest was that -3dB bandwidth tested at 183-186MHz (slight differences between channels), so it might be good for a bit over 100MHz when you're only using 1 or 2 channels. Gotta watch out for aliasing when running 3 or 4 channels or lower sample rates though!

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Intra, Tue Feb 10 2015, 06:03PM

Look like Hantek DSO5072P ($213) are better and cheaper than Rigol DS1052E ($302)

Picture of mine.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Wolfram, Tue Feb 10 2015, 06:07PM

Yeah, it's definitely excellent value for money. After having had mine for almost a month, I can reaffirm the recommendation. The deep memory (24 megapoints after the upgrade) and the intensity grading really work well, and they make all the difference in the world for the stuff I've used it for so far. I've attached a photo showing a waveform capture of some instability in an induction heater. Being able to do a single capture like this and zoom in on the individual switching events in detail is immensely useful.

I didn't have a USB memory stick handy so I had to do a crappy picture of the scope with a cell phone camera, but hopefully it gets the point across.






Yeah, the DS1052E is six years old by now, and not really a good deal given all the newer options that have appeared lately. The Hantek price is very good. In that price class there are not many better alternatives, but in my opinion the new Rigols are an even better deal, even if they are twice as expensive. Of course it depends on the individual needs when it comes to features and cost. I know I couldn't live without intensity grading and deep memory after trying it, and four channels turned out to be much more handy than I expected. I never really used 4 channels before, as the last two channels on my 2465B are limited in coupling options and voltage scaling. In the Rigol all channels are fully featured, which makes it much more natural to use all the channels.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
..., Tue Feb 10 2015, 07:36PM

I would have to agree, for someone who spends a lot of time looking a scope captures moving from a DSO (like the tek 1000 series, or just about anything costing under $10k in year 2012) to the newer 'Digital Phosphor Oscilloscope' DPO is almost more of an improvement than from moving from an analog scope to a digital one. You get the deep zoom, single shot ability, FFT, automatic measurements, computer connectivity, etc that made DSOs so great and retain the ability to collect thousands of traces at a time and view them in an intuitive way that I find is preferable to even the nicest analog scopes that I have used (tek 2465, 7900 system, etc).

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Tue Feb 10 2015, 08:17PM

My biggest gripe with the fully digital units is bandwidth, that's why I have the older Tek scopes, and not a TDS3000. I like the new TDS series, but honestly, if I'm going to buy a new scope, I'm going to want 350 MHz bandwidth, but its going to cost me $6000!

I complained to the Tek reps at our in-house trade show they do (yea Northrop gets vendors coming to us... it's pretty cool!) and I had to complain, there isn't a budget scope with high bandwidth!

What's interesting about this is that their marketing has determined that the biggest scope market cuts-off at about 300 MHz, and there is no need for anything faster.

But for someone like myself, who wants to play with RF stuff, and I want an all-in-one package, its just a piss-poor situation. I would really love to see an affordable 500 MHz scope with an affordable 6 GHz spec. ana. built in, just like Agilent is pushing but AFFORDABLE.

I dunno, just me ranting again. I'll buy when I can get my hands on a fully featured scope. Until then, I will still use the old equipment I have, which sadly has more performance, AND...AND I can get digital captures from my Tek 2430A using the Spark Fun board, I just cant do the mega-zoom which is a very cool feature, it would be nice to have.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
..., Tue Feb 10 2015, 10:17PM

That is true, unfortunately making quality front-ends with multi-GHz bandwidth is still expensive, as far as I know there is just no way to buy a quality low noise amplifier, programmable gain block, and a/d which is capable of operating at 1GHz+ for the sub-$100 price point required for an affordable scope, an issue which is further compounded by the fact that (like you mentioned) the number of people who are willing to pay for the bandwidth between 100MHz and 1GHz is way less than those willing to pay for the 1Hz-100MHz range. The solution I have settled on in the mean time is to buy a used sampling scope for the high end stuff and a cheap new scope for the low frequency stuff.

This works well because sampling scope technology more or less matured about 20 years ago, so you can get used scopes amazingly cheap for what you get, consider the HP 54120 (about $500 for a used one, similar in cost to the CSA803 series) will get you 4 channels with 20GHz each (even while running all 4 of them) and a step generator for doing TDR measurements of transfer functions/reflections. Of course you have to deal with the fact that it is a sampling scope so you have to work with repetitive signals, and get the triggering figured out (although the built in step generator usually makes this easy enough), but being able to have a fully digital rig which can cover up to 20GHz for under $1k is unbelievable.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Mads Barnkob, Wed Mar 18 2015, 10:22AM

I could no longer resist the DS1054Z and have it ordered from batronix in Germany, there is however a 1-2 months lead time due to popular demand.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Hydron, Wed Mar 18 2015, 02:18PM

I might have had something to do with the peer pressure, sorry :P
Have ordered my own too.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
nzoomed, Mon Mar 23 2015, 08:41PM

One question here, are high frequency scopes required for testing DRSSTC tesla coils?
I have a Tektronix 561A (which is an awesome old school scope BTW) but is only rated at 10 MHz, Since my coil im working on is expected to only run at around 75KHz is this an issue? Or do higher frequency scopes show more detail that is not seen on lower frequency scopes?

TIA

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Mads Barnkob, Mon Mar 23 2015, 09:13PM

The rule of thumb for oscilloscopes is that you want a specification twice as fast as the signal you want to see. This rule is properly only true for older analogue oscilloscopes.

In new/newer digital oscilloscopes, the sample rate is a very important factor, if you do not sample fast enough, you will miss information and the presented curve might have nothing to do with reality.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Hydron, Mon Mar 23 2015, 10:23PM

With a 10MHz scope you'll see the DRSSTC current waveform fine, but it can't show fast rise times or high frequency ringing on the bridge output. That said, it's probably quick enough that you'll get away with it.

Assuming NZ from the username? If so, good to see some more kiwis here! (I'm UK based right now, but built a coil back home in Auckland)

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
nzoomed, Tue Mar 24 2015, 03:44AM



Yes im from New Zealand!

This is my first DRSSTC i will be building so ive got alot to learn, since they are so different than just a basic spark gap coil.

Im confident that i can get mine working and ive got a friend with a faster 100 MHz Rigol scope if i get stuck.
I do love my tektronix scope though, its been great for working on audio circuits.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Finn Hammer, Sun Apr 19 2015, 08:15AM

Working on a spark gap tabletop coil, I realized the hard way, that I had forgotten what precautions are needed when working with 10kV, and that cost me my Tek. TDS2014, due to a faulty ground connection. So I bought a Rigol DS1054Z.

Immediate shipping at reasonable rates, and VAT included.
It should come in tomorrow, and I can´t wait to check the RigLOL upgrade option.....
Anyway, deep memory, from the 5K of the Tek, to 24M, It´s gonna be a different world alltogether.
The Tek. cost me 14K Kroner about 10 years ago, now for 3.5K Kronor, I get what looks like a much better scope.
It is going to be interesting to check the "feel" of the quality of this scope against the recollection og the Tek predecessor.

Cheers, Finn Hammer

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Hydron, Sun Apr 19 2015, 12:59PM

The screen will be a huge improvement from the old Tek, and the memory depth gives you many more measurement abilities.

Enjoy!

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
loneoceans, Sun Apr 19 2015, 07:11PM

You can use Riglol to make it magically into a 1104z :)

I've recommended this scope to lots of people (I have one myself) and it really has been a fantastic scope! It's probably the best scope on the market now for under $1000 (even though it's only $400).

The next step up if you have $3000 or more to spare would be one of the Infinivisions though :)

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Hydron, Sun Apr 19 2015, 08:30PM

The other riglol unlocks can often be more useful than the 100MHz bandwidth - protocol decode etc can be very handy.

If you do use the riglol tool, make sure you use the (unlisted) DSER code rather than DSFR to unlock all options - it omits the 500uV vertical option which is known to cause problems.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Finn Hammer, Sat Apr 25 2015, 09:11PM





I am flabberghasted. The scope arrived and the parcel was heavy. Heavy is a quality parameter in my world.
Out of the box, the scope looked good, quality plastic parts, the early Tek. TDS scopes set the standard for design and quality, and this scope builds heavily on that legacy.
When I look at the triggerin options, the bandwidth and not to forget, memory depth, this scope blows my mind.
And compared to mainstream, extremely high volume mass produced Tablets, at a similar price point, this toy just offers so much more joy, and apparent value for the money.
If the old TDS2014 was like an electronic microscope, then this is a fully fledged bio lab with cloning potential!
-oh, did I tell you that I love it?

Cheers, Finn Hammer

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Mads Barnkob, Fri May 08 2015, 09:05AM

I finally got it yesterday, only got to test all 4 channels and play around with the menu's. Planning is ofc so good that I have to travel away for 5 days with work, so the new toy will have to wait.

It seems the USB support is just as bad as from the DS1052e, first it would not recognise my sticks, then it acts up weird when one is inserted, but it does no longer detect it. I finally find one that works, make a folder with the built in disk manager, oh god yes, chinese characters and 2GB files that can no longer be deleted.

Best way to save to USB, the nice green printer button will quick dump, no need to go through menus anymore :)

also riglolled.

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
loneoceans, Fri May 08 2015, 04:10PM


I found that the actual USB stick does matter a bit - some of them would be intermittent and some would work great. I found a quick reformat of the USB disk seems to work. Still, can't beat this for $399. :)

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Mads Barnkob, Fri May 08 2015, 04:52PM


The 4GB FAT32 stick I had that worked in my ds1052e did not work in the ds1054z. Neither did it help to quick format, normal format and at any given combination of FAT/FAT32 and allocation size that you can do with windows format.

Another 4GB FAT32 stick that never worked in the ds1052e was instantly recognized by the ds1054z. However, when i made a folder using the built in file manager it was full of chinese letters and 2GB files, a folder which the ds1054z itself could not even delete again. Windows asked to repair the stick after that and then the folder was gone.

"Flash drive filesystem init failured"

Re: Oscilloscope Choice
Electroholic, Thu May 14 2015, 11:55AM

This was what I could afford at the time. Solid scope, had it for 3 years, not a single problem. USB works integration is seamless, will boots from USB if you really want.





Still would like more advance trigger options tho.