Tin plating copper clad pcb
Sulaiman, Sun Mar 30 2014, 10:15AMI have plain copper clad pcb material, some in sheet form,
some cut to 160x100mm 'Eurocard' size, and some cut as a front panel.
I then cut the copper away to make 'tracks', or Manhattan style etc.
I am considering tin plating the mostly double sided fiberglass boards
as they tarnish so horribly.
For a cosmetic tin plated finish I'm considering a pure tin 5oz. 'ingot' (GBP7.50, eBay)
and electrolytic plating - guessing that I'll need a lot of tin.
I've no experience of tin plating .. suggestions please. (electrolyte etc.)
(cheap, disposable, not to unfriendly to the environment or me etc.)
P.S. just read that a final plating of chromium is required for the 'shiny' finish,
I don't want to use chromium so any reasonable finish that is easy to do is needed.
(I've looked at 'tinning salts' which seem ok but I want less cost/area.)
P.P.S
12Apr14 bought pure tin and hydrochloric (36%) acid, results to follow.
14Apr14 bought 500ml each of Sulphuric (96%) and Nitric (69%) acids
so I can experiment with tin(II) chloride or sulphate electrolyte.
(quite surprised that such concentrated acids are available via eBay UK)
I'll probably have a play with tin crystal growing too
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Sulaiman, Sun May 11 2014, 09:01PM
Finally got around to making a YouTube account and a video of tin crystal growing
here is the video
The solution is tin in hydrochloric acid (a bit too much acid, hence the 'steam' in the video)
it looked prettier than in the video
but I'm quite pleased for a first YouTube attempt.
This was my second attempt, I didn't video the first attempt.
My son made the video using a Cannon SLR
The video is in real time.
Sulaiman, Sun May 11 2014, 09:01PM
Finally got around to making a YouTube account and a video of tin crystal growing
here is the video
The solution is tin in hydrochloric acid (a bit too much acid, hence the 'steam' in the video)
it looked prettier than in the video
but I'm quite pleased for a first YouTube attempt.
This was my second attempt, I didn't video the first attempt.
My son made the video using a Cannon SLR
The video is in real time.
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Thomas W, Sun May 11 2014, 09:24PM
Wow, that looks really awesome i must say. thinking of getting some of these things and giving it a go myself.
Thomas W, Sun May 11 2014, 09:24PM
Wow, that looks really awesome i must say. thinking of getting some of these things and giving it a go myself.
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Sulaiman, Sun May 11 2014, 11:03PM
What I liked was that after the video I put the crystals and liquid back in a flask, heated it
and the tin crystals dissolved back into the liquid, ready to play again.
The first time I tried I varied the current,
low current gives lots of tiny crystals, like frost
higher current gives even thinner crystals.
if the tin chloride + acid is very diute then wide flat blade-like crystals formed.
I'll be playing some more.
a 9V alkaline battery is about the best voltage, quite a current drain though,
that's why I used a bench power supply for the video.
so I may try sealing the electrodes/liquid as it is re-usable just by warming.
Once I've experimented enough I'll do what I originally intended .. tin plating copper-clad board.
Sulaiman, Sun May 11 2014, 11:03PM
What I liked was that after the video I put the crystals and liquid back in a flask, heated it
and the tin crystals dissolved back into the liquid, ready to play again.
The first time I tried I varied the current,
low current gives lots of tiny crystals, like frost
higher current gives even thinner crystals.
if the tin chloride + acid is very diute then wide flat blade-like crystals formed.
I'll be playing some more.
a 9V alkaline battery is about the best voltage, quite a current drain though,
that's why I used a bench power supply for the video.
so I may try sealing the electrodes/liquid as it is re-usable just by warming.
Once I've experimented enough I'll do what I originally intended .. tin plating copper-clad board.
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Ash Small, Sun May 11 2014, 11:15PM
I'd use the 'old' flux technique, and use the purest tin I can get.
Electro-chemistry is a 'dark art' if you don't know what you're doing.
try the 'traditional' approach first
Ash Small, Sun May 11 2014, 11:15PM
I'd use the 'old' flux technique, and use the purest tin I can get.
Electro-chemistry is a 'dark art' if you don't know what you're doing.
try the 'traditional' approach first
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Sulaiman, Mon May 12 2014, 12:47PM
Well, I don't know much yet, that's part of why I'm playing / experimenting,
and 'dark art' is what this forum is all about !
From playing with my crystal growing setup I can see why much lower current densities give a better finish,
and by reversing the polarity (just call me 'Scotty') after the crystals have formed
I saw how they break up, especially near the cathode, and drop off
which is probably related to the practice of repetitively and briefly passing a large reverse current during electroplating,
even if the finished product is not a super smooth bright finish when I do it,
it should be enough to protect the copper from corrosion, which is my main aim,
and it's fun ( must get out more ! )
I certainly would NOT recommend diy tin electroplating, the pre-packed electroless system is easier
and for typical PCBs it doesn't need all of the copper to be electrically connected
Sulaiman, Mon May 12 2014, 12:47PM
Well, I don't know much yet, that's part of why I'm playing / experimenting,
and 'dark art' is what this forum is all about !
From playing with my crystal growing setup I can see why much lower current densities give a better finish,
and by reversing the polarity (just call me 'Scotty') after the crystals have formed
I saw how they break up, especially near the cathode, and drop off
which is probably related to the practice of repetitively and briefly passing a large reverse current during electroplating,
even if the finished product is not a super smooth bright finish when I do it,
it should be enough to protect the copper from corrosion, which is my main aim,
and it's fun ( must get out more ! )
I certainly would NOT recommend diy tin electroplating, the pre-packed electroless system is easier
and for typical PCBs it doesn't need all of the copper to be electrically connected
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Ash Small, Mon May 12 2014, 01:27PM
I still think just melting the tin and fluxing the board and dipping it is the easiest way to get a good finish, but I'm also interested in your results.
It's sometimes difficult to get a 'lasting' finish with electroplating.
Ash Small, Mon May 12 2014, 01:27PM
I still think just melting the tin and fluxing the board and dipping it is the easiest way to get a good finish, but I'm also interested in your results.
It's sometimes difficult to get a 'lasting' finish with electroplating.
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
klugesmith, Tue May 13 2014, 01:17AM
Have you looked into commercially packaged fluids for this purpose?
e.g. Liquid Tin by MG Chemicals.
I can attest that pure tin, plated onto solid copper, has the risk of spontaneously growing tin whiskers.
klugesmith, Tue May 13 2014, 01:17AM
Have you looked into commercially packaged fluids for this purpose?
e.g. Liquid Tin by MG Chemicals.
I can attest that pure tin, plated onto solid copper, has the risk of spontaneously growing tin whiskers.
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Sulaiman, Tue May 13 2014, 06:10AM
Yes, the first thing I looked at was 'Liquid Tin' and similar proprietary products.
I considered it expensive, so decided to have a go at electrolytic plating.
I have looked at the MSDS for 'Liquid Tin' to see what additives are used
Fluoroboric Acid 9-11%
Stannous Fluoroborate 9-11%
Thiourea
and probably some 'secret' ingredients ...
I've also researched 'tin whiskers' and watched video's of their growth (amazing)
and researched tin plating in general.
Despite all of the above I'm going for tin electroplating,
partly since I only want to coat continuous sheets, cheaply
and partly because chemistry was the hobby of my youth
and I just felt like re-visiting chemistry.
I have already spent more than I would have if I just used 'Liquid Tin'
Digital scales & calibration weights, acids, thermometers,burner, flasks, liquid measures ....etc.
and a Quickfit Leibig condenser setup (I couldn't afford one when I was younger)
so it's really a 'justification' to myself to spend some cash on a 'Chemistry Set'
(I did 'A' Level chemistry, I used to run the Chemistry Club at school and it was my main hobby).
I've been watching YouTube video's by 'Periodic Videos' .. so Chem knowledge getting refreshed.
As a youth Pyrotechnics was my main area of chemistry
but in the current environment (I'm a bearded Muslim) I will be prudent and avoid that area.
Although I have good neighbours
(my Ham Radio antennas and Tesla Coil experiments have caused interest, not complaints)
pyrotechnics would probably be a bit too much to ask.
So, thanks for the advice .. but I'm going a different direction.
P.S. can anyone suggest a chemistry forum that doesn't emphasize pyrotechnics and illegal drug synthesis ?
P.P.S. if anyone can provide a list of chemicals that are likely to cause black helicopters or swarms of police to appear, please suggest them ... I don't want to vanish in the night !
Large quantities of Ammonium Nitrate, Hydrogen Peroxide, Acetone are the most obvious,
what else should I avoid ?
Sulaiman, Tue May 13 2014, 06:10AM
Yes, the first thing I looked at was 'Liquid Tin' and similar proprietary products.
I considered it expensive, so decided to have a go at electrolytic plating.
I have looked at the MSDS for 'Liquid Tin' to see what additives are used
Fluoroboric Acid 9-11%
Stannous Fluoroborate 9-11%
Thiourea
and probably some 'secret' ingredients ...
I've also researched 'tin whiskers' and watched video's of their growth (amazing)
and researched tin plating in general.
Despite all of the above I'm going for tin electroplating,
partly since I only want to coat continuous sheets, cheaply
and partly because chemistry was the hobby of my youth
and I just felt like re-visiting chemistry.
I have already spent more than I would have if I just used 'Liquid Tin'
Digital scales & calibration weights, acids, thermometers,burner, flasks, liquid measures ....etc.
and a Quickfit Leibig condenser setup (I couldn't afford one when I was younger)
so it's really a 'justification' to myself to spend some cash on a 'Chemistry Set'
(I did 'A' Level chemistry, I used to run the Chemistry Club at school and it was my main hobby).
I've been watching YouTube video's by 'Periodic Videos' .. so Chem knowledge getting refreshed.
As a youth Pyrotechnics was my main area of chemistry
but in the current environment (I'm a bearded Muslim) I will be prudent and avoid that area.
Although I have good neighbours
(my Ham Radio antennas and Tesla Coil experiments have caused interest, not complaints)
pyrotechnics would probably be a bit too much to ask.
So, thanks for the advice .. but I'm going a different direction.
P.S. can anyone suggest a chemistry forum that doesn't emphasize pyrotechnics and illegal drug synthesis ?
P.P.S. if anyone can provide a list of chemicals that are likely to cause black helicopters or swarms of police to appear, please suggest them ... I don't want to vanish in the night !
Large quantities of Ammonium Nitrate, Hydrogen Peroxide, Acetone are the most obvious,
what else should I avoid ?
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Ash Small, Tue May 13 2014, 11:18AM
I've had a look at a couple of webpages on the subject, and it would appear (if I've understood correctly) that in order to obtain a bright finish, the workpiece is heated to the melting point of tin (232C) after electroplating.
Does this concur with your research, Sulaiman?
Ash Small, Tue May 13 2014, 11:18AM
I've had a look at a couple of webpages on the subject, and it would appear (if I've understood correctly) that in order to obtain a bright finish, the workpiece is heated to the melting point of tin (232C) after electroplating.
Does this concur with your research, Sulaiman?
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Sulaiman, Tue May 13 2014, 12:02PM
I didn't come across that but it sounds like a good idea,
If my final attempts don't look good I'll definitely try.
I originally hoped that just electroplating will be ok,
if not I was considering a hot air gun and liquid flux, but an oven may be better.
Thanks
For now I'm happy 'playing' with my 'Chemistry set'
Sulaiman, Tue May 13 2014, 12:02PM
I didn't come across that but it sounds like a good idea,
If my final attempts don't look good I'll definitely try.
I originally hoped that just electroplating will be ok,
if not I was considering a hot air gun and liquid flux, but an oven may be better.
Thanks
For now I'm happy 'playing' with my 'Chemistry set'
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Sulaiman, Sat May 31 2014, 05:02PM
Please forgive my double posts, just photo's of my current setup;
My chem. kit, some donated by Aard-Wolf.
Cute little Quickfit reflux/distillation parts (the flasks are 25ml)
And for distilled water
Sulaiman, Sat May 31 2014, 05:02PM
Please forgive my double posts, just photo's of my current setup;
My chem. kit, some donated by Aard-Wolf.
Cute little Quickfit reflux/distillation parts (the flasks are 25ml)
And for distilled water
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Aard-Wolf, Wed Jun 04 2014, 08:44PM
Yeah... "distilled water"
Don't forget to mark the demijohn full of "distilled water" with three X's (or is it four?)
Aard-Wolf, Wed Jun 04 2014, 08:44PM
Sulaiman wrote ...
And for distilled water
And for distilled water
Yeah... "distilled water"
Don't forget to mark the demijohn full of "distilled water" with three X's (or is it four?)
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Conundrum, Sat Jun 14 2014, 06:29AM
Be sure to post the finished board
It seems that strong acids and alkali metals (Li, Na, K, Mg, etc) can result in a black helicopter swarm.
This is due to these being used in the "One Pot" synth, not saying any more for obvious reasons.
Also another item to watch out for is RoHS materials, ie Cd, Pb etc. Even though they are still legal for certain uses they can't be sent by UK post any more even if in a compound/ceramic.
I did have a thought about tin whiskers, apparently Bi stops them forming as well as Pb.
Conundrum, Sat Jun 14 2014, 06:29AM
Be sure to post the finished board
It seems that strong acids and alkali metals (Li, Na, K, Mg, etc) can result in a black helicopter swarm.
This is due to these being used in the "One Pot" synth, not saying any more for obvious reasons.
Also another item to watch out for is RoHS materials, ie Cd, Pb etc. Even though they are still legal for certain uses they can't be sent by UK post any more even if in a compound/ceramic.
I did have a thought about tin whiskers, apparently Bi stops them forming as well as Pb.
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Sulaiman, Sat Jun 14 2014, 11:09AM
3% to 5% copper is considered a reasonable mitigation of tin whiskers,
possibly with some silver also.
I'm presently experimenting with silver chemistry,
(and I have the silver nitrate stained fingers to prove it ;<)
partly because silver is good at higher frequencies,
and partly just out of curiosity.
comming soon .. photochemistry and a little silver battery technology experimenting.
For plating purposes 'sterling' silver is ok
but I'm using .9999 canadian maple leaf silver coin also.
and I love the shine of silver.
I've got so re-interrested in chemistry that I have done no electronics (or astronomy) lately.
it was my first significant hobby before electronics, but I lost interrest due to a poor organic chem. teacher at 'A' level and concentrated on my electronics hobby.
Currently in the process of making a fume hood/cupboard, primarily due to NO2 fumes !
when my son (with his camera) and I are both free at the same time
I'll put up some more youtube videos.
I'm completely anti-synthetcs (for health, safety and religious beliefs), so no breaking bad here !.
I'd like to re-visit pyrotechnics, but that's another black helicopter magnet.
I will abandon this thread and move to 'Projects' as I am drifting off topic
and I may need multiple posts.
Sulaiman, Sat Jun 14 2014, 11:09AM
3% to 5% copper is considered a reasonable mitigation of tin whiskers,
possibly with some silver also.
I'm presently experimenting with silver chemistry,
(and I have the silver nitrate stained fingers to prove it ;<)
partly because silver is good at higher frequencies,
and partly just out of curiosity.
comming soon .. photochemistry and a little silver battery technology experimenting.
For plating purposes 'sterling' silver is ok
but I'm using .9999 canadian maple leaf silver coin also.
and I love the shine of silver.
I've got so re-interrested in chemistry that I have done no electronics (or astronomy) lately.
it was my first significant hobby before electronics, but I lost interrest due to a poor organic chem. teacher at 'A' level and concentrated on my electronics hobby.
Currently in the process of making a fume hood/cupboard, primarily due to NO2 fumes !
when my son (with his camera) and I are both free at the same time
I'll put up some more youtube videos.
I'm completely anti-synthetcs (for health, safety and religious beliefs), so no breaking bad here !.
I'd like to re-visit pyrotechnics, but that's another black helicopter magnet.
I will abandon this thread and move to 'Projects' as I am drifting off topic
and I may need multiple posts.
Re: Tin plating copper clad pcb
Ash Small, Sat Jun 14 2014, 11:33AM
I almost suggested silver at the beginning of this thread, but thought you were 'committed' to tin.
My 'A' level chemistry teacher seemed to be a bit 'inorganic' as well
I was fascinated by electro-chemistry, and furtunately had an excellent physics teacher, although he did have terminal cancer at the time. I went on to set up what was basically an electro-polishing business, although I wasn't a very good businessman (wasn't really motivated by money, but it was a lot of fun)
Ash Small, Sat Jun 14 2014, 11:33AM
I almost suggested silver at the beginning of this thread, but thought you were 'committed' to tin.
Sulaiman wrote ...
but I lost interrest due to a poor organic chem. teacher at 'A' level
but I lost interrest due to a poor organic chem. teacher at 'A' level
My 'A' level chemistry teacher seemed to be a bit 'inorganic' as well
I was fascinated by electro-chemistry, and furtunately had an excellent physics teacher, although he did have terminal cancer at the time. I went on to set up what was basically an electro-polishing business, although I wasn't a very good businessman (wasn't really motivated by money, but it was a lot of fun)
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