Use water glass as HV insulator?
Conundrum, Wed Mar 28 2012, 06:46AMHi all.
Just had an idea, could water glass (aka sodium silicate) be used to insulate say a cardboard secondary former to use it for high voltage applications?
This would be particularly useful as it has a surface consistency similar to glass, yet chemically identical.
It does have some sodium ions present but this isn't likely to be as big a problem as usual.
Tried it with a piece of copper and EL phosphor, which glows as bright as usual under UV once the water glass has cured with mild heating < 70C for a few hours.
Comments?
(plus its a heck of a lot cheaper than Epoxy and substantially less toxic)
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Patrick, Wed Mar 28 2012, 07:35AM
we used sodium glass in chemistry class for all the least sensitve reactions, is that the same stuff?
Patrick, Wed Mar 28 2012, 07:35AM
we used sodium glass in chemistry class for all the least sensitve reactions, is that the same stuff?
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Proud Mary, Wed Mar 28 2012, 11:38AM
"When completely dehydrated, sodium and potassium silicates exhibit good dielectric properties."
Extracted from:
Proud Mary, Wed Mar 28 2012, 11:38AM
"When completely dehydrated, sodium and potassium silicates exhibit good dielectric properties."
Extracted from:
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Ben Solon, Wed Mar 28 2012, 05:35PM
As stated, when dry, it should work well. Just watch out for surface tracking. While glass doesn't conduct, it allows surface tracking easier than say, a plastic or film dielectric.
Ben Solon, Wed Mar 28 2012, 05:35PM
As stated, when dry, it should work well. Just watch out for surface tracking. While glass doesn't conduct, it allows surface tracking easier than say, a plastic or film dielectric.
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
radiotech, Wed Mar 28 2012, 07:25PM
I have some glass pH probes Do they conduct?
radiotech, Wed Mar 28 2012, 07:25PM
I have some glass pH probes Do they conduct?
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Bored Chemist, Wed Mar 28 2012, 08:00PM
I don't know about water glass, but fire cement is a fairly good insulator and the binder in it is sodium silicate.
However, be warned, when it gets hot it conducts quite well (like ordinary glass), which could lead to thermal runaway.
Bored Chemist, Wed Mar 28 2012, 08:00PM
radiotech wrote ...
I have some glass pH probes Do they conduct?
Yes, but probably very badly.I have some glass pH probes Do they conduct?
I don't know about water glass, but fire cement is a fairly good insulator and the binder in it is sodium silicate.
However, be warned, when it gets hot it conducts quite well (like ordinary glass), which could lead to thermal runaway.
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Pinky's Brain, Wed Mar 28 2012, 08:18PM
Does a sodium silicate solution naturally produce a continuous polycrystalline film during dehydration? If it creates flakes or scales it won't be much use obviously.
Pinky's Brain, Wed Mar 28 2012, 08:18PM
Does a sodium silicate solution naturally produce a continuous polycrystalline film during dehydration? If it creates flakes or scales it won't be much use obviously.
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Proud Mary, Thu Mar 29 2012, 09:04AM
The exact properties of a sodium silicate glass depend on its SiO2/Na2O ratio, but all are polymeric and water-soluble.
Proud Mary, Thu Mar 29 2012, 09:04AM
Pinky's Brain wrote ...
Does a sodium silicate solution naturally produce a continuous polycrystalline film during dehydration? If it creates flakes or scales it won't be much use obviously.
Does a sodium silicate solution naturally produce a continuous polycrystalline film during dehydration? If it creates flakes or scales it won't be much use obviously.
The exact properties of a sodium silicate glass depend on its SiO2/Na2O ratio, but all are polymeric and water-soluble.
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Conundrum, Fri Mar 30 2012, 06:42AM
hm..
So I'd need to insulate it with Epoxy as well.
Still, an interesting experiment to try as putting it between two sheets of real glass then insulating the edges could work well for all sorts of applications.
Conundrum, Fri Mar 30 2012, 06:42AM
hm..
So I'd need to insulate it with Epoxy as well.
Still, an interesting experiment to try as putting it between two sheets of real glass then insulating the edges could work well for all sorts of applications.
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Proud Mary, Fri Mar 30 2012, 07:57AM
You'll like this one, André. Tells you how to make doped silicate layers using very simple methods.
Montaser M et al: ZnO doped sodium silicate preionize N2 Laser Chinese Physics Letters Vol 6, No. 11, (1989) 491
Which you can download here:
Proud Mary, Fri Mar 30 2012, 07:57AM
You'll like this one, André. Tells you how to make doped silicate layers using very simple methods.
Montaser M et al: ZnO doped sodium silicate preionize N2 Laser Chinese Physics Letters Vol 6, No. 11, (1989) 491
Which you can download here:
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Conundrum, Wed Apr 04 2012, 07:23AM
Thanks Proud Mary, this is useful indeed!!!
One thing I might try is insulating a piece of ITO with a very thin layer of silicate, then drying under vacuum or gentle heating to stop it blistering.
Then paint phosphors, etc onto that to see if the breakdown strength is any better than Epoxy or BaTiO3.
Come to think of it, mixing BaTiO3 with silicate would probably work even better.
Heat it up to the upper Curie point then apply HV field to "pole" the material and gently cool to room temperature.
Instant piezos?!
Conundrum, Wed Apr 04 2012, 07:23AM
Thanks Proud Mary, this is useful indeed!!!
One thing I might try is insulating a piece of ITO with a very thin layer of silicate, then drying under vacuum or gentle heating to stop it blistering.
Then paint phosphors, etc onto that to see if the breakdown strength is any better than Epoxy or BaTiO3.
Come to think of it, mixing BaTiO3 with silicate would probably work even better.
Heat it up to the upper Curie point then apply HV field to "pole" the material and gently cool to room temperature.
Instant piezos?!
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Proud Mary, Wed Apr 04 2012, 01:27PM
I thought the paper's recipe for the silicate semiconductor was perfect for the home constructor, and all sorts of different dopants could be added without difficulty.
As for drying out, the paper was quite clear on prolonged heating at 100 °C - presumably to heat the material no more than absolutely necessary to drive out the water. This could be done on a kind of bain-marie on the kitchen stove, so long as you could stop steam condensing on the glass.
I'm sure all sorts of interesting experiments could be done with the silicate mixtures and ITO glass - or just plain tin oxide coated glass which is easy to produce from readily availlable tin (II) chloride, as you know. I favour microscope slides for this kind of thing.
Proud Mary, Wed Apr 04 2012, 01:27PM
I thought the paper's recipe for the silicate semiconductor was perfect for the home constructor, and all sorts of different dopants could be added without difficulty.
As for drying out, the paper was quite clear on prolonged heating at 100 °C - presumably to heat the material no more than absolutely necessary to drive out the water. This could be done on a kind of bain-marie on the kitchen stove, so long as you could stop steam condensing on the glass.
I'm sure all sorts of interesting experiments could be done with the silicate mixtures and ITO glass - or just plain tin oxide coated glass which is easy to produce from readily availlable tin (II) chloride, as you know. I favour microscope slides for this kind of thing.
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Conundrum, Thu Apr 05 2012, 07:16AM
Am having problems downloading it, can you check the link?
thanks!
-A
Conundrum, Thu Apr 05 2012, 07:16AM
Am having problems downloading it, can you check the link?
thanks!
-A
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Proud Mary, Thu Apr 05 2012, 08:05AM
It's working fine from my machine.
Proud Mary, Thu Apr 05 2012, 08:05AM
Conundrum wrote ...
Am having problems downloading it, can you check the link?
thanks!
-A
Am having problems downloading it, can you check the link?
thanks!
-A
It's working fine from my machine.
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Steve Conner, Thu Apr 05 2012, 08:36AM
I'm getting error no. 404 with fried rice.
Steve Conner, Thu Apr 05 2012, 08:36AM
I'm getting error no. 404 with fried rice.
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Proud Mary, Thu Apr 05 2012, 08:55AM
Flied lice 404 is on the menu here too, Steve: I just realised that I was pulling up the paper from my cache!
André, if you'd like to send me an email address in a PM, I'll send you the download directly.
Proud Mary, Thu Apr 05 2012, 08:55AM
Steve Conner wrote ...
I'm getting error no. 404 with fried rice.
I'm getting error no. 404 with fried rice.
Flied lice 404 is on the menu here too, Steve: I just realised that I was pulling up the paper from my cache!
André, if you'd like to send me an email address in a PM, I'll send you the download directly.
Re: Use water glass as HV insulator?
Tetris, Thu Apr 05 2012, 03:34PM
I know glass is a good dielectric, but I've seen a big marx strike a piece of glass. There was tons of surface tracking. I want to try an experiment myself with a water glass-salt-aluminum foil leyden jar cap with an NST.
Tetris, Thu Apr 05 2012, 03:34PM
I know glass is a good dielectric, but I've seen a big marx strike a piece of glass. There was tons of surface tracking. I want to try an experiment myself with a water glass-salt-aluminum foil leyden jar cap with an NST.
Print this page