Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Billybobjoe, Sun Jun 25 2006, 06:18PMI just bought ball mill (well, rock tumbler, but looks exactly like United Nuclear's) on eBay and I need some milling media. I know that lead-antimony is prefferred but is there anything else that can be use that is nonsparking? UnitedNuclear and other places say lead is the only completely non sparking media, but that may have something to do with them selling it at crazy prices.
I don't want all sorts of lead dust all over the place so would glass (marbles) be OK? I can't see them sparking and they're fairly heavy. The only thing I can think of would be the static aspect being an e- donor. What about brass?
Anyone have any experience with this? I'm looking for something pretty easy to find and inexpensive.
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Wolfram, Sun Jun 25 2006, 07:31PM
Glass marbles can work, the only problem is that they will chip and contaminate what you are milling with glass dust. They might generate static, I don't really know. Brass is regarded as non-sparking, so that should work well if you can get brass balls.
How about making your own media out of lead? As long as you take the neccessary safety precautions, things should be relatively safe and easy.
Here's some good information:
Wolfram, Sun Jun 25 2006, 07:31PM
Glass marbles can work, the only problem is that they will chip and contaminate what you are milling with glass dust. They might generate static, I don't really know. Brass is regarded as non-sparking, so that should work well if you can get brass balls.
How about making your own media out of lead? As long as you take the neccessary safety precautions, things should be relatively safe and easy.
Here's some good information:
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Jun 25 2006, 08:54PM
How about doing it right and buying a pound of ceramic mill pellets. I know they are out there, I just can't remember where.
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Sun Jun 25 2006, 08:54PM
How about doing it right and buying a pound of ceramic mill pellets. I know they are out there, I just can't remember where.
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Billybobjoe, Sun Jun 25 2006, 10:26PM
I was thinking ceramic - but I saw this article
BALL MILLING BLACK POWDER: DON’T USE CERAMIC GRINDING MEDIA
Cal F. passed this along. It may seem obvious to you, but we get a lot of calls from folks who are just beginning to set up their own ball mills and want to know what to use to do the grinding work. Cal writes: “Bought some willow charcoal from a guy in Indiana a while back. He said he had a big explosion ball milling black powder using ceramic media. Thought I’d pass along the info†Thanks, Cal.
What you want is lead or brass grinding media. Lead grinding media can be had from all sorts of sources. For small mills, you can use the .50 caliber round balls obtainable at black powder gun shops. I know people who have used large sinkers and wheel weights (with the center, steel part cut away). Perhaps the best lead media are those made with an additional amount of antimony metal to harden them.
From this site -
Also from Skylighter –
Q: Can I use alumina or ceramic balls in my ball mill for making black powder and whistle mix?
A: Sure. Once. Alumina or ceramic milling media make little teeny tiny sparks. Sparks are what we use to ignite flammable and explosive mixes with. So, the odds are pretty high that using them to grind explosive mixtures will result in an explosion. If you have never seen a ball mill full of black powder or whistle mix explode, you have missed one of life's truly sobering experiences. If you are milling an explosive mix, use lead or brass media. If you are milling a single chemical (not a mix) that is not likely to explode or ignite, you can use ceramic.
I'll look around for brass. I may end up getting them from McMaster 50 for $14.97.
Billybobjoe, Sun Jun 25 2006, 10:26PM
I was thinking ceramic - but I saw this article
BALL MILLING BLACK POWDER: DON’T USE CERAMIC GRINDING MEDIA
Cal F. passed this along. It may seem obvious to you, but we get a lot of calls from folks who are just beginning to set up their own ball mills and want to know what to use to do the grinding work. Cal writes: “Bought some willow charcoal from a guy in Indiana a while back. He said he had a big explosion ball milling black powder using ceramic media. Thought I’d pass along the info†Thanks, Cal.
What you want is lead or brass grinding media. Lead grinding media can be had from all sorts of sources. For small mills, you can use the .50 caliber round balls obtainable at black powder gun shops. I know people who have used large sinkers and wheel weights (with the center, steel part cut away). Perhaps the best lead media are those made with an additional amount of antimony metal to harden them.
From this site -
Also from Skylighter –
Q: Can I use alumina or ceramic balls in my ball mill for making black powder and whistle mix?
A: Sure. Once. Alumina or ceramic milling media make little teeny tiny sparks. Sparks are what we use to ignite flammable and explosive mixes with. So, the odds are pretty high that using them to grind explosive mixtures will result in an explosion. If you have never seen a ball mill full of black powder or whistle mix explode, you have missed one of life's truly sobering experiences. If you are milling an explosive mix, use lead or brass media. If you are milling a single chemical (not a mix) that is not likely to explode or ignite, you can use ceramic.
I'll look around for brass. I may end up getting them from McMaster 50 for $14.97.
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Carbon_Rod, Mon Jun 26 2006, 01:54AM
Most people use a wet solvent mix (or water) to keep volatile chemicals stable. Working dry is not always a good idea -- I am not sure why it has become such a common technique in the last few years as even coal dust or flour can be unpredictable in a closed container. (Chuck a dry cup of sand in there for a few hours and see if it stays cool.)
Bismuth shot should work just as well.
Carbon_Rod, Mon Jun 26 2006, 01:54AM
Most people use a wet solvent mix (or water) to keep volatile chemicals stable. Working dry is not always a good idea -- I am not sure why it has become such a common technique in the last few years as even coal dust or flour can be unpredictable in a closed container. (Chuck a dry cup of sand in there for a few hours and see if it stays cool.)
Bismuth shot should work just as well.
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
McFluffin, Mon Jun 26 2006, 03:29AM
I was under the impression that getting copper(as in the brass) into an explosive mixture was nearly as dangerous as sulpher with a chlorate. Have I been mislead or is copper safe?
Do you mean grinding it wet by hand compared to dry in a ball mill or wet in a ball mill? Perhaps more pressure is required when wet and so it doesn't grind as finely as it could. I believe it is wetted to make it safe to apply more pressure.
I had never heard that about ceramics. I'll keep that in mind.
McFluffin, Mon Jun 26 2006, 03:29AM
I was under the impression that getting copper(as in the brass) into an explosive mixture was nearly as dangerous as sulpher with a chlorate. Have I been mislead or is copper safe?
Do you mean grinding it wet by hand compared to dry in a ball mill or wet in a ball mill? Perhaps more pressure is required when wet and so it doesn't grind as finely as it could. I believe it is wetted to make it safe to apply more pressure.
I had never heard that about ceramics. I'll keep that in mind.
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Desmogod, Mon Jun 26 2006, 03:48AM
Have you thought of running it as a SAG or FAG mill?
Desmogod, Mon Jun 26 2006, 03:48AM
Have you thought of running it as a SAG or FAG mill?
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Carbon_Rod, Mon Jun 26 2006, 05:27AM
“is copper safe?â€
Personally I don’t know of anyone who has tried it.
“wet in a ball mill?â€
No extra steps – just make sure what you are grinding is not damaged by water etc.
Cheers,
Carbon_Rod, Mon Jun 26 2006, 05:27AM
“is copper safe?â€
Personally I don’t know of anyone who has tried it.
“wet in a ball mill?â€
No extra steps – just make sure what you are grinding is not damaged by water etc.
Cheers,
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Billybobjoe, Mon Jun 26 2006, 09:02PM
I could do it wet with water. The only problem is that when the it dries you'll have to crush it again into a powder (this is for BP). That wouldn't be too bad though.
Desmogod - whats the difference (looked around on Google but not too many explanations) between a normal ball mill and a SAG or (trying not to giggle) FAG mill - is it just wet?
Billybobjoe, Mon Jun 26 2006, 09:02PM
I could do it wet with water. The only problem is that when the it dries you'll have to crush it again into a powder (this is for BP). That wouldn't be too bad though.
Desmogod - whats the difference (looked around on Google but not too many explanations) between a normal ball mill and a SAG or (trying not to giggle) FAG mill - is it just wet?
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Desmogod, Tue Jun 27 2006, 02:51AM
Ok, In a standard ball mill, you (usually) use metal balls as a medium for grinding. In a SAG mill, it is a Semi Autogenous Grind, where less balls are used, and the substance in the mill acts as it's own grinding agent. And dare I say it, In a FAG mill (Fully Autogenous Grind) they use no balls at all. I was unaware what you where grinding, and was looking upon this from a mining perspective.
I think you are going to have troubles with friction, heat build up and possibly even static, and this is not a good thing considering the product you are grinding.
I would say your best bet would be to use lead and water, then find some way of regrinding the "cake" after it has dried.
Desmogod, Tue Jun 27 2006, 02:51AM
Nick T. wrote ...
Desmogod - whats the difference (looked around on Google but not too many explanations) between a normal ball mill and a SAG or (trying not to giggle) FAG mill - is it just wet?
Desmogod - whats the difference (looked around on Google but not too many explanations) between a normal ball mill and a SAG or (trying not to giggle) FAG mill - is it just wet?
Ok, In a standard ball mill, you (usually) use metal balls as a medium for grinding. In a SAG mill, it is a Semi Autogenous Grind, where less balls are used, and the substance in the mill acts as it's own grinding agent. And dare I say it, In a FAG mill (Fully Autogenous Grind) they use no balls at all. I was unaware what you where grinding, and was looking upon this from a mining perspective.
I think you are going to have troubles with friction, heat build up and possibly even static, and this is not a good thing considering the product you are grinding.
I would say your best bet would be to use lead and water, then find some way of regrinding the "cake" after it has dried.
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Bjørn, Tue Jun 27 2006, 04:50AM
That something has worked millions of times for other people does not make it automatically safer. You need to know why it has worked and what may cause it not to work.
For example does humidity play a large part in if static electricity will be a problem or not. Charcoal and sulfur dust clouds may be ignited by sparks of 15-20 mJ. In a dry desert it might happen every day and some other place it might not happen in the lifetime of the universe.
Bjørn, Tue Jun 27 2006, 04:50AM
That something has worked millions of times for other people does not make it automatically safer. You need to know why it has worked and what may cause it not to work.
For example does humidity play a large part in if static electricity will be a problem or not. Charcoal and sulfur dust clouds may be ignited by sparks of 15-20 mJ. In a dry desert it might happen every day and some other place it might not happen in the lifetime of the universe.
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Billybobjoe, Tue Jun 27 2006, 04:18PM
Well, its fairly humid here, average of about 80% so its far from a desert, but I'm not going to rely mainly on humidity. I suppose I'll mill wet (with water), but would I absolutely have to use lead balls? If the mixtures WET there won't be static with the glass.
I suppose lead dust would be kept to a minimum if I was grinding wet, but I'd still like to stay away from it if possible.
Billybobjoe, Tue Jun 27 2006, 04:18PM
Well, its fairly humid here, average of about 80% so its far from a desert, but I'm not going to rely mainly on humidity. I suppose I'll mill wet (with water), but would I absolutely have to use lead balls? If the mixtures WET there won't be static with the glass.
I suppose lead dust would be kept to a minimum if I was grinding wet, but I'd still like to stay away from it if possible.
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Carbon_Rod, Wed Jun 28 2006, 01:32AM
I would not recommend glass – unless you are trying to make a paint or polymer mix.
For rounding off river stones or glass shards a course 220 SiC is pretty efficient. Don’t leave it too long as it will powder normal stones after a time (roughly 10-36 hours).
For surface preparation use 800 to 1200 SiC grinding compounds (always keep the dust wet and your respirator will last longer.)
For polishing talcum powder works ok for most things.
For cleaning iron cast the old ball bearings or brass ball pellets work well. Contaminates like stainless steel are magnetic so easily removed from a mix.
Yeah, as a kid I collected stones from all over. Also made more than a few solid fuel model rockets. Another good tip – leave your used grinding compound in a transparent plastic or glass bucket for a while so you can see where the sedimentation lines fall. That way you can reuse the grinding compound many more times
Fun stuff,
Carbon_Rod, Wed Jun 28 2006, 01:32AM
I would not recommend glass – unless you are trying to make a paint or polymer mix.
For rounding off river stones or glass shards a course 220 SiC is pretty efficient. Don’t leave it too long as it will powder normal stones after a time (roughly 10-36 hours).
For surface preparation use 800 to 1200 SiC grinding compounds (always keep the dust wet and your respirator will last longer.)
For polishing talcum powder works ok for most things.
For cleaning iron cast the old ball bearings or brass ball pellets work well. Contaminates like stainless steel are magnetic so easily removed from a mix.
Yeah, as a kid I collected stones from all over. Also made more than a few solid fuel model rockets. Another good tip – leave your used grinding compound in a transparent plastic or glass bucket for a while so you can see where the sedimentation lines fall. That way you can reuse the grinding compound many more times
Fun stuff,
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed Jun 28 2006, 08:31AM
Actually water will help to oxidize fresh lead surfaces to lead oxide faster then if lead is left to sit out.
ALSO PLEASE post clearly what you are doing and DETAILS in the FIRST POST, not successive posts.
gawd that drives me crazy!
Hazmatt_(The Underdog), Wed Jun 28 2006, 08:31AM
Actually water will help to oxidize fresh lead surfaces to lead oxide faster then if lead is left to sit out.
ALSO PLEASE post clearly what you are doing and DETAILS in the FIRST POST, not successive posts.
gawd that drives me crazy!
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Billybobjoe, Thu Jun 29 2006, 09:31PM
What exactly do you mean about the lead oxidizing? Is that a good thing or what?
Sorry about not providing all the info. You would think people would understand this is something pyrotechnic considering its in the chemistry forum and I don't want any sparks. You don't really have to worry about limestone or whatever igniting.
Billybobjoe, Thu Jun 29 2006, 09:31PM
Hazmatt_(The Underdog) wrote ...
ALSO PLEASE post clearly what you are doing and DETAILS in the FIRST POST, not successive posts.
gawd that drives me crazy!
ALSO PLEASE post clearly what you are doing and DETAILS in the FIRST POST, not successive posts.
gawd that drives me crazy!
What exactly do you mean about the lead oxidizing? Is that a good thing or what?
Sorry about not providing all the info. You would think people would understand this is something pyrotechnic considering its in the chemistry forum and I don't want any sparks. You don't really have to worry about limestone or whatever igniting.
Re: Ball mill - Lead alternatives?
Steve Conner, Fri Jun 30 2006, 10:14AM
Calm down hazmatt
I don't have a problem with Nick T's posting style, in fact I think he's one of our more understandable posters.
As for inexpensive: How much would you pay not to get your face blown off by an exploding ball mill? For goodness' sake just buy the proper non-sparking milling media that the pyro community already uses and knows by experience to be safe. I think the danger of an explosion is much more worrying than the danger of lead dust.
When I used to make black powder, it always sucked. I think it was because my KNO3 was coarse crystals, only a little finer than sugar, and I never had the patience to grind it properly with my crappy wooden mortar and pestle.
Steve Conner, Fri Jun 30 2006, 10:14AM
Calm down hazmatt
I don't have a problem with Nick T's posting style, in fact I think he's one of our more understandable posters.As for inexpensive: How much would you pay not to get your face blown off by an exploding ball mill? For goodness' sake just buy the proper non-sparking milling media that the pyro community already uses and knows by experience to be safe. I think the danger of an explosion is much more worrying than the danger of lead dust.
When I used to make black powder, it always sucked. I think it was because my KNO3 was coarse crystals, only a little finer than sugar, and I never had the patience to grind it properly with my crappy wooden mortar and pestle.
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