PLL driver improvement

Steve Ward, Wed Jun 21 2006, 02:55AM

In my experiences with the PLL driver on Steve Conners site, the phase shift is not consistent when the secondary is detuned by streamers. In the case of my latest SSTC, this phase shift was quite severe. I would attempt to compenstate by having the switching transitions lag the current by some 30*, but at full power, my switching was still leading by about 45* (switching almost 70% of the peak current!). This is better than a VCO at least, but the only thing that makes it worth while in my opinion is that it can tolerate ground strikes without going crazy. From what i understand, this scheme is not a reall PLL, because of the way it manipulates the VCO input (it only maintains shift at one specific frequency).

So, i set out to create a real PLL circuit.

Link2

The new circuit was designed with some help from Jimmy H. The new scheme uses phase comparator II because it naturally seeks a 0 degree shift (which is much closer to what we want than a 90 degree shift). But, now we must figure out a way to trick the PLL into thinking it really has achieved a 0 degree shift, despite the fact that the VCO output and the signal input will *never* really be at 0 degrees. The trick is to take the VCO output, and feed it through a delay line, which is set to the delay of the driver and mosfets, and feed this into the phase comparator input. Jimmy's original idea was to take voltage feedback from the bridge, but my delay circuit works pretty well (though you do have to manually tune it). Now the total phase shift from 10% to 100% in is only a few degrees, so it does a far better job of maintaining ZCS.

There are some "gotcha's". First, since im using PCII, its more sensitive to really fast changes in input. Because of this, ive had to slow down the response time of the PLL (note the capacitor on the VCOin pin 9 is 10X larger). Also, there is a tendency for the PLL to lose lock (and jump to the upper frequency limit and stay there) if you short out the secondary, but this condition isnt terribly dangerous since the primary current is then greatly reduced (inductive reactance takes over). Also, because i had to slow down the response time of the PLL, it doesnt respond quite as nicely to the raw DC input. It still makes plenty long sparks, but they sound a bit harsh. Im still working on this part as id like to have it run as smooth as possible.

Here are some pics of the coil running with the old driver. The sparks and everything look just the same so i didnt bother taking pics of it running with the new driver. The videos are pretty cool too.

Link2

There are still some improvements to be had, as i mentioned above, so dont go building the circuit immediately (although it already works rather well).


UPDATE:

After more tinkering, ive eliminated the problem with losing lock. It was a matter of setting R1 properly, which limits the upper frequency limit. You have to set it just above the secondaries unloaded Fo for it to work properly.

But, ive discovered one serious drawback. It just *wont* work on half-wave rectified input (and im sure the same goes for feeding it interrupter pulses). The problem is that PCII resets to the lower frequency limit when there is no input signal to the phase comparator. I have some bilateral switches that i will likely stick in there to either disconnect the PC2 output from the VCO in, or connect the VCO out into the other PC input (im thinking the earlier is more reliable). This would also require a trigger from the AC line to control the switch, probably something like the staccato controller that is so popular. Staccato would be nice anyway, since it would allow quick conversion from 120pps, to 60pps, to 30pps, to 15.... all with just a turn of a knob. More to come ...

Another Update:

I put the CD4066 switch in place to both enable the VCO input and the gate drivers so that it will work with any staccato or interrupter signal. The schematic has been updated. The PLL seems to lock fine for "normal" SSTC use, probably isnt fast enough for DRSSTCs. I still seem to get weak ground sparks under certain conditions, so im gonna try to figure that out. Im also having problems with flashover between the coils, but that isnt related to the PLL circuit (at least i dont think it is).
Re: PLL driver improvement
HV Enthusiast, Wed Jun 21 2006, 02:24PM

Is there any particular reason you are moving towards the PLL based driver? Have you found some problems with your present driver configuration?
Re: PLL driver improvement
Marko, Wed Jun 21 2006, 02:32PM

For some people 'PLL' just sounds cool. smile

I guess it's all about having a stable CW coil that can be audiomodulated, wich is hard with direct feedback and more stale than open loop VCO.
Re: PLL driver improvement
Steve Ward, Wed Jun 21 2006, 05:25PM

Dan,

I am not considering the PLL driver for DRSSTC use if thats what you mean. But, i do feel its the most viable option for regular SSTCs (and in that case, i *have* found reasons that this is better). So why am i messing with SSTCs again? I still think they are cool, and isnt that what it really comes down to anyway?. At first i just threw this coil together out of left over parts that have just been getting in my way. But, when i saw that the PLL circuit was not really functioning as advertised, it just bugged me. I was also hoping to supply hobbyists with another option for controlling their SSTCs, but i fear it might be teetering on the edge of being too complex rolleyes .

I guess it's all about having a stable CW coil that can be audiomodulated, wich is hard with direct feedback and more stale than open loop VCO.


Yes, that is a big part of it too. I do plan to eventually audio modulate this (frequency/phase modulation). Im envisioning this as being a very nice "demonstration" coil and im trying to build in as many features as possible to allow for every possible mode of SSTC operation: CW, 120hz full-wave, 60hz half-wave, staccato, interrupted, and audio modulated. This will most likely be the last SSTC i ever build for myself, and realistically, the last DRSSTC. Ive built them as big and as small as i possibly can. Dont worry, i dont plan on dissappearing from the HV community any time soon wink .
Re: PLL driver improvement
HV Enthusiast, Wed Jun 21 2006, 06:29PM

Steve Ward wrote ...

This will most likely be the last SSTC i ever build for myself, and realistically, the last DRSSTC. Ive built them as big and as small as i possibly can.

Steve Conner,

Looks like your chance to get back in the biggest SSTC contest . . . heh heh heh wink

Re: PLL driver improvement
Steve Ward, Wed Jun 21 2006, 08:43PM

Yep, my backyard cant support more than 12 foot sparks.

I had a MOSFET blowout today when i tried running with just 3 primary turns. Im not sure why it failed. It worked fine at 100% with 4 turns, but blew up at maybe 35% with 3 turns. Anyway, i noticed before than the 4046 doesnt really put out exactly 50% duty cycle, its more like 46% (just estimating by eye). Anyway, i was not using a DC blocking cap on my TC primary, and i noticed there was indeed a rather large DC offset (and assuming my CT probably couldnt keep up with the entire offset, it was likely worse than what i saw). So now i added 1.36uF of blocking caps, and ran it up at 4 turns on the primary. At full 280VAC input i get 36" strikes cheesey . As far as i know, this is the longest SSTC spark captured on camera (though ive heard stories of people making longer sparks). So the controller seems to be working well, though im still fine tuning and revising. The latest changes will be made to the schematic shortly.

Link2


1150922580 146 FT11732 36spk4
Re: PLL driver improvement
Terry Fritz, Thu Jun 22 2006, 02:51PM

Hi,

One might wish to consider "really" computerizing the thing. The 8 CPU 32 bit 80MHz Propeller from Parallax or a similar "super computer on a chip" thing could probably "think" its way through zero current crossing and streamer loading. It could "calculate" the timing, run the IGBTs, monitor for screw ups, run the NTSC display, keyboard, internet connection, play Tetris (:o))... just about everything in parallel in real time.

Link2

It's only $25 but one would have to know programming and such to program the little monster. But it should easily have the power to reduce the "control thing" to a "chip". As the controllers start to get really complex, this might be a very good option to take all those little ICs, resistors, caps... "out" and just do it all in "software".

Cheers,
Terry



Re: PLL driver improvement
Marko, Thu Jun 22 2006, 03:03PM

[very sorry for double post, mod please delete this, thanks]
Re: PLL driver improvement
Marko, Thu Jun 22 2006, 03:04PM

Omg steve, that's 'pretty big' CW spark.
I see that 3 foot soonly growing to 10.. :)

One thing, On richieburnett's old SSTC (pumped up a bit) streamers formed straight, sharp spikes, like small swords, and looked pretty evil and powerful.

To me these are probably nicest SSTC arcs I seen, altough not the longest smile

I guess you need non-CW input envelope for that (just fullwave rectified? )

1 meter arc like that would be 'pretty neat'.

Ss15

I hope image is not too big..?

Link2
Re: PLL driver improvement
Steve Conner, Thu Jun 22 2006, 03:11PM

Meh. I program DSPs for a day job, and I still chose analog circuitry for my PLL driver. The big problem with processor based stuff is latency, ie the time it takes to suck data in through the A/D converters, do all the calculations, and spit it out again. If I want to play Tetris I can always connect a Gameboy to it. tongue

Steve's new PLL driver is a lot like my Mk2 driver, but simpler, which I guess is a good thing smile The sparks look great!

EVR, that wouldn't be fair tongue I'm still working on Odin The All-Fragger but I'm not sure when it'll be finished, and I don't see it beating 12ft with its 30" secondary. The only way I'd be interested in trying for the DRSSTC record would be as part of a UK team, kind of like what Chris Hooper is doing with Ward and Jimmy.
Re: PLL driver improvement
Steve Ward, Thu Jun 22 2006, 05:34PM

Steve's new PLL driver is a lot like my Mk2 driver, but simpler, which I guess is a good thing The sparks look great!


Thanks. Im coming to the conclusion though that there is indeed a slight trade-off with using my controller. The PC2 just seems too sensitive to low power ground strikes, so at low power, the ground hits are often thin. I wish i had a DSO so i could capture one burst from the PLLs VCO to see exactly what its trying to do. It may in fact just be a characteristic of my coil.

To me these are probably nicest SSTC arcs I seen, altough not the longest


I agree. I think maybe the higher operating frequency tends to make the arcs brighter in this case because of the higher currents (?). Also, since he used a camcorder to capture the sparks, it probably makes them look brighter than the pics i too with my camera. I think camcorders are particularly sensitive to TC sparks from when ive used them... they would make sparks on even little coils look extra thick.

Omg steve, that's 'pretty big' CW spark.


Sorry if i mislead, but the 3 foot sparks were with half-wave input. My longest CW sparks are about 21" so far.
Re: PLL driver improvement
Terry Fritz, Thu Jun 22 2006, 07:27PM

Meh. I program DSPs for a day job, and I still chose analog circuitry for my PLL driver.


Since you do it for "work", that takes all the fun out of it tongue I think you mentioned once you like the analog circuits for Tesla coils because they aren't like work. In my case, I got ride of the "work", so now I like it all again cheesey

The big problem with processor based stuff is latency, ie the time it takes to suck data in through the A/D converters, do all the calculations, and spit it out again.


Consider if you "trigger" on "current reversal". Not the zero crossing, but the current peak. The inflection point where the primary current goes from positive to negative. The zero crossing is only 1/4 cycle latter. The time is short enough so the zero crossing can't "move" too far but long enough for the processing. Normally we would never consider that since it takes a computer... But with a computer, why consider anything else... You could still have ZCC detectors there just as a double check or to detect a problem. No A/D converion since simple comparitors give the digital transition used for timing.

Steve knows a million times more about all this stuff than I do and "nightmare wavforms" would require a "Cog" all by themselves!! You could also take IGBT temperature and at least try to shut the bridge down in the case of a fault. The computer could keep track of IGBT power dissipation as a pure calculation too... No reason to "waste" any of the CPUs :o)

Of course, one could do a full speed primary current A/D stream to the processor too! Then you could probably hit the ZCC every time.

Of course, this is all "more easily said that done stuff" smile But I think all the technical tools are out there to do it if one wishes.

Oddly, someone WILL probably use a gameboy to do it... "why spend $25 on the CPU when you can just use one out of a busted gameboy"... But those are programmers who live in a world "I" can't comprehend" amazed

One could also completely model the coil in the multi CPU and just display the coil on the color video screen without any coil hardware at all... But "i" might be the only one who would "appreciate" that :o) Yeah, I know.... "Terry, just a game boy could be programed to do that..." But the game boy could have all the coil parameters, timing, rail voltages, etc. on the buttons so you could sit there and play with it all day!!! The only thing I would need then would be for the guys in the white coats to bring me batteries %:o))

Cheers,
Terry
Re: PLL driver improvement
colin heath, Thu Jun 22 2006, 08:22PM

The only way I'd be interested in trying for the DRSSTC record would be as part of a UK team, kind of like what Chris Hooper is doing with Ward and Jimmy.

Well Steve. That sounds like a job invite amazed Lets do it. I will be up for the mechanical building part and anything else you need. I have a 12" x 60" secondary here with a 12" x 48" toroid. 10 turn primary also. Only thing is secondary is around 80KHZ or so I think with topload. (will have to measure).

Sounds like some fun building this thing with a full bridge of cm600 and throwing some massive arcs!

If you don't fancy it then I could do with some cm600 bricks to finish mine wink maybe I can talk the missus round angry

Cheers,

Colin
Re: PLL driver improvement
J. Aaron Holmes, Thu Jun 22 2006, 08:38PM

Terry Fritz wrote ...

Oddly, someone WILL probably use a gameboy to do it... "why spend $25 on the CPU when you can just use one out of a busted gameboy"... But those are programmers who live in a world "I" can't comprehend" amazed

One could also completely model the coil in the multi CPU and just display the coil on the color video screen without any coil hardware at all... But "i" might be the only one who would "appreciate" that :o) Yeah, I know.... "Terry, just a game boy could be programed to do that..." But the game boy could have all the coil parameters, timing, rail voltages, etc. on the buttons so you could sit there and play with it all day!!! The only thing I would need then would be for the guys in the white coats to bring me batteries %:o))

Perhaps when I get my DRSSTC book, I can play with this idea. I already created a Game Boy cartridge and add-on hardware to control my handheld radio for Radio Direction Finding hunts, shown here:
Link2
(sorry, pictures are pretty dark/lame)

I believe this was also one of the first amateur projects to use the link port for anything. Used Game Boys are cheap. The FLASH cartridges are the worst part. A cheap one is as much as the Game Boy itself. I'd hate to fry either! The HAM SDK has text output with built-in font, and I built a text menu system on top of it. If you can write C code, producing a cartridge that samples the link port and pumps out square waves is totally trivial.

Regards,
Aaron, N7OE

Re: PLL driver improvement
Terry Fritz, Fri Jun 23 2006, 03:24AM

I already created a Game Boy cartridge and add-on hardware to control my handheld radio for Radio Direction Finding hunts.......


Seeeee wadda I mean.... Color video, input switches, color displays, keybords, USB, "spins"... Then add "gammer processors" from "the really hot place"... The technology to "calculate" has far "outrun" the needs of Tesla coils wink))

Even them DRSSTC's smile))

We is real "slow"...

Beware analog folks!!!, the "digital kids" are going to run us over like "old frogs"!!! Jimmy and the Steves will be be feeling "old" now too :O))) Just like "me" :O))))

As "Tesla said"... See the excitment coming!!!!!!!!

BTW - When a DRSSTC is first fired up, it could fire a small "pre-pulse" as a "measure"... all the current crossings and such, Plenty of time to analize "that readback" for "problems"... Then predict and modify the drive signal based off that first "test of the world out there"... Real time feedback takes care of the streamer loading and such issues... That is in the first 10mS!!!!!

It's "gonna get wild now" wink)) Aaron looks older... A "young mind with old knowledge"... That is the most dangerous weapon of all :o)))))))))))))))

Cheers,

Terry




Re: PLL driver improvement
Steve Conner, Fri Jun 23 2006, 09:32AM

Wow, looks like a nice Gameboy project smile I have one of the original GBs with the GBDSO cartridge, but I never got round to making my own flash cart and trying to load stuff into it. I did briefly think of trying to make a DRSSTC interrupter cartridge for it, but I just lay down and the feeling went away. tongue

Colin, building the coil itself would be pretty easy. That big coil system you have sounds OK, although it would be nice if the frequency was nearer 20kHz than 80.

The real problem is finding an indoor venue with plenty of power, enough headroom for sparks, and "Tesla friendly" owners, that we could take over for at least two full days to allow for debugging. And sorting out transport for the people and equipment that have to be brought together from all over the UK. If you guys can do that, I'm happy to turn up with a full bridge of CM600s and a large tank cap.

This is off-topic and any further discussion should be done on the TCBOUK mailing list or a new thread.