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Registered Member #11591
Joined: Wed Mar 20 2013, 08:20PM
Location: UK
Posts: 556
Uspring wrote ...
On a more abstract level left and right is more about humans being "equal".
What that precisely means is not clear. Equality may imply equal rights, equal income, equal social status, influence etc. The views on equality can also be relevant wrt nations as a whole. Equal income, e.g., curbs incentive, while the unlimited accumulation of wealth and power by a few individuals will not be accepted by the rest. Like everything, that is a question of balance.
Part of the problem with equality or anarchist communism as you have described, is that there is no way to irrefutably determine effort in order to ensure that everyone is doing an equal effort of work. Without everyone doing the same effort of work, resentment will be caused between workers (she/he is doing less work than me!). This causes the workers to do the bare minimum, decreasing efficiency, and / or requiring a controlling power to compel the workers to perform (equally). A controlling power creates inequality and, in extremes, dictatorship. The only way you could achieve true anarchist communism is with robots!
Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
This turned into a very interesting thread. Sorry Mads for double posting, it was late, etc.
Personally, having read the thread through, I now see Socialism as the 'middle path' between the Communism of the East and the Capitalism of the West.
I think that what is happening in Britain's Labour Party is more than just 'anti establishment', although that is one element, as is the case in America, where I see a campaign even more dirty that the Brexit campaign.
The Establishment seem to be losing credibility on both sides of the Pond, but I hear that the US now owes China $17 Trillion. Neither the Republicans or Democrats seem to be saying much about it, though.
I also understand that China has a missile system that can take out every US aircraft carrier anywhere in the world, and the US doesn't yet have a system to combat it.
The balance of power is changing. Do we want China to get everything it's own way?
Registered Member #135
Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735
And robots will ultimately have a "need" to become more "human", because robots lack many facets which make us creative, intuitive, flexible (adaptive), innovative, and hell... have an argument that goes nowhere.
Put two roombas in a room, they have almost complete freedom to do whatever, they're still just going to clean the floor because they were created with that purpose in mind. A robot without purpose is just going to sit there and wait for a purpose, eg. 10 Wait for event, 20 Act, 30 Go to 10.
So the whole robot thing is a bust, without an inherent purpose put there by it's creator, it will do nothing because to do so otherwise is wasteful of resources that might be needed elsewhere.
Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
Isn't the ONLY real alternative to dystopia socialism?
As humans are required to work less and less hours, and the capitalist system is a 'pyramid' system, where, eventually, the man at the top has 'supreme power', where is the difference between capitalism and a communist dictatorship?
Is socialism the only alternative to dystopia, and the anniahilation of 99% of the human race?
Registered Member #42796
Joined: Mon Jan 13 2014, 06:34PM
Location:
Posts: 195
but socialism creates lazy ppl through governmental handouts in form of welfare... also leveling the playing field (to prevent man at the top having supreme power situations) can only be done through violence and by restricting individual rights
so for all intents and purposes socialism is dystopia...
dexter wrote ... leveling the playing field (to prevent man at the top having supreme power situations) can only be done through violence and by restricting individual rights
usual process is to send young and fittest off to war , one way , there by leveling the playing field in order to preserve the social hierachy . culling is the word
Registered Member #29
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500
paris wrote ...
dexter wrote ... leveling the playing field (to prevent man at the top having supreme power situations) can only be done through violence and by restricting individual rights
usual process is to send young and fittest off to war , one way , there by leveling the playing field in order to preserve the social hierachy . culling is the word
This is a good point, and one well studied by political philosophers. Hannah Arendt devoted a large part of her massive tome "Origins of Totalitarianism" on the use of war and colonies to dispose of what she termed "excess population". The Brits used the colonies in the Americas to dump settlers and prisoners (and then Australia, after 1783) to relieve population pressure and maintain economic and social stability in Britain. Germany looked to the east (Russia, Poland) as a place to dump its excess population and to relieve economic and food production pressures. Pan germanic nationalism was used to justify these actions. At the time, Europe was going through a period of stagnation not unlike what we are seeing now. We can look forward to a whole host of political pathology and demagogues as people seek to break through the stagnation. War on a scale of 1939-1945 could be a possibility within a generation if we are not careful.
Registered Member #3414
Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245
WaveRider wrote ...
This is a good point, and one well studied by political philosophers. Hannah Arendt devoted a large part of her massive tome "Origins of Totalitarianism" on the use of war and colonies to dispose of what she termed "excess population". The Brits used the colonies in the Americas to dump settlers and prisoners (and then Australia, after 1783) to relieve population pressure and maintain economic and social stability in Britain. Germany looked to the east (Russia, Poland) as a place to dump its excess population and to relieve economic and food production pressures. Pan germanic nationalism was used to justify these actions. At the time, Europe was going through a period of stagnation not unlike what we are seeing now. We can look forward to a whole host of political pathology and demagogues as people seek to break through the stagnation. War on a scale of 1939-1945 could be a possibility within a generation if we are not careful.
That is certainly the most probable outcome with either Capitalism or Communism. However a true 'Socialist' society, which, by definition, be both fair and democratic would only ever go to war in self defence, surely?
Registered Member #96
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4059
Bad news, my ISP has gone "Full Hitler (tm)", blocking 4HV, reddit, NSF, etc. What part of "Free and open Internet" don't they understand, you cannot suppress the truth. Having to type this via anonymizer, now going to see if I can get this block overturned through the courts.
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